The "Anti-Fun" Mechanics + My Proposed Solutions

This is a great game so far, but I’m noticing a few of what I’d like to call “anti-fun” mechanics. Now I’m not really far into the game yet but even so I’m already feeling the wrath of these hateful systems. But I’m not just going to moan about my woes-- that won’t get us anywhere. I’m no professional, but I’ve got a few potential fixes for these gripes of mine.

First up, and what is arguably the worst part of my experience; durability. Let me preface this bit by saying I’m not much of a fan of durability in most games. However, this is the most egregious form of the idea in the most anti-fun way possible. Here’s how it goes for me; when I die (a frequent and expected occurrence in a game of this nature), you lose durability on just about everything you have equipped. Lose enough of it, and your gear starts to get weaker and weaker to the point of you needing to change up your entire build or hauling it to the repair shop to pay to get it fixed. Why does this system need to further punish the already-punishing experience of dying? When I’m dead, I’m already getting my rear end sent back who knows how far to the nearest save point-- which is already enough of a punishment in my opinion. And I know you’re saying: “well you can just go back to the hub area and pay to have your gear fixed,” but what fun is that? Seriously, is it fun to have to drag myself to the nearest blacksmith just to throw a few coins in the infinite money pit that only grows deeper from the latter half of the phrase “trial and error?” So what’s the fix, big man? Well if you’re so inclined to keep the system around, why not invert it? Instead of losing durability when you die, you passively lose it while you use it based on the gear. Weapons lose durability per enemies killed, armor per hits taken. Gear won’t just instantly break while you’re out there fighting and exploring, but it’ll get weaker and any long expeditions may force you to change things up a bit until you reach a save point where it’s freely replenished. Then when players find themselves at a roadblock they don’t have the grave dug any deeper just from trying to get through. And if you want to keep the smithies involved too, lets give them the ability to upgrade maximum durability, so any player who has an issue with this can upgrade their main gear to the point of not having to put up with it.

Next on the list is health management, or more specifically healing. Now I know this game wants to do it’s own thing and forgo the genre-standard Estus Flask system that souls games have been doing since their inception, and yes, I know this isn’t a traditional soulslike– but flasks are still around for a reason. Let me paint you a picture of an all too familiar scenario. You’ve been stuck fighting the same boss for a while now and but you’re really getting the hang of this boss and think you can kill him in the next few tries. But uh oh-- you’re all out of food! Guess you have to stop taking on that finely-crafted battle to waste your time finding mushrooms and herbs to make stew with, just so you can challenge that boss again without having to do a heal-less attempt. And while you’re out there foraging for shrooms, have fun losing that muscle memory you’ve been building up. You see what I’m getting at here? The current healing system punishes players for taking too many tries to beat a boss (or just overcoming any roadblocking obstacle) by forcing them to leave the fun fight and go farm food to make healing with. That’s not fun-- I want to fight the boss and learn whatever intricacies of the battle at my own pace without having to worry about the impending dread of being out of heals. My solution is a familiar, yet enhanced concept that still keeps the foraging and foodstuffs around. Instead of only having food, players are given a Reusable Healing Item (that may or may not act like an Estus Flask) which obviously recharges at save points. However, this Reusable Healing Item has special properties-- it can be infused (term pending) with the dishes you cook, so the system isn’t abandoned entirely. For example, lets say you infuse the Reusable Healing Item with mushroom soup, and alongside the normal healing it provides there’s an added 20% to it. Now that sounds pretty strong, but you can only have that for as many soups you’ve cooked. The Reusable Healing Item goes back to being its normal self when you run out (or choose to uninfuse the soup.) This hypothetical system keeps players from ever “running out” of heals and having to leave whatever they’re doing to go get more, which is a really boring experience. There’s also the added strategy of players choosing what dishes to infuse with their Reusable Healing Item and when to use them-- meaning they could save dishes for tougher encounters without having to eat raw ingredients with pathetic healing abilities. This Reusable Healing Item could easily be integrated with other systems, to increase amount of uses or healing amounts.

Lastly, the timers/time gates used in basebuilding. This one is less anti-fun and more of a killjoy, but it still rains on my parade to the point of deserving of this spot. I’ll put it bluntly, the time gates simply don’t belong in a game like this. Forcing players to have to wait a certain amount of time before sowing the rewards of their efforts is free-to-play mobile game levels of scummy behavior. Seriously, what is the point of this? At least with mobile game drivel the purpose is clear-- making you wait is just another opportunity to siphon your wallet to skip the line. But there’s no need for that here-- and it certainly shouldn’t be welcome considering that I forked over money for this game. My solution is to just remove them. Simple as that.

In conclusion, I love this game to bits so far but it certainly is in early access for a reason. Hopefully my words will reach you all and inspire some changes-- whether they be my proposed solutions or something freshly-concocted. I look forward to seeing it.

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  1. you can repair on the way with repair powder which drops in the early game area. later on, its not an issue since u travel back to town anyways to upgrade, sell etc.

  2. there have been several discussions about healing and healing timers. spoiler free: as u progress through the game u get more recipes and can just carry different meals that also buff your character. for the healing timer discussions, please have a look and share your ideas here:
    Food cooldown feedback, suggestion to change

  1. healing can be less of an issue with the right enchantments. progress a bit through the game and experiment with enchantments. a “get HP on hit” built is imo currently the strongest built

  2. while i do agree, that the building timers are quite long, i personally never had an issue with it. i do not stand around an hour to watch it get build. i do some quests and exploring, or daily challenges, and when i come back everything is done.

and another thing a lot of people do not notice on their own: you can have multiple realms and switch them with your character basically any time from the main menu. i only have 1 main realm, with everything upgraded and storage, and multiple other realms where i only upgraded the merchant grinnich to check his inventory, since it is different in every realm.

hope this helps :slight_smile:

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I’m gonna be as short & blunt as possible because these topics have been mentioned ad nauseam and it’s reminiscent of soulsborne players who haven’t branched out. It’s not just a soulslike, it’s not just a soulslike, no it is not just a soulslike no matter what you want to say.

  1. You do not get punished at all for dying in this game, if you are complaining about having to go back to where you died is a punishment then just never play a game ever. In soulsbornes you lose your currency here you don’t lose that. The durability isn’t intended as just a punishment system, it’s meant to remind you to go back to the hub because this is an ARPG you are meant to buildcraft way more than a soulslike.

  2. JFC I’m sick of seeing an estus flask asking system every time. This game has clear survival game mechanics hence the food system instead. By your own logic no singleplayer game should have anything but a flask system anymore, BOTW/TOTK should also have a flask system, Monster Hunter should get rid of its food system too. No I’m not kidding the food system is deep YOU have to try and participate with it on its terms though those food buffs are seriously strong. You can nearly double your max health through the food that is not a joke, no flask does that, no ashes do that. IF we did a flask system there is only one game that has a good implementation of it & that’s Remnant 2

  3. I agree here but hate your reasoning you even acknowledge that in mobile games it both constantly happens & is meant to make you lose money; traits this game doesn’t have. By your logic the entire survival game genre shouldn’t exist, crafting shouldn’t exist, it should be a button and then you get everything you want ever.

Treat it as a survival ARPG not a soulsborne where you just fight mindlessly and only upgrade one thing ever. Get used to going back to the hub, selling, trying new weapons, and refining your build.

4 Likes

Hello and welcome,

I do not think that durability and the current way healing works are ‘‘anti-fun’’ mechanics. The waiting timers on construction I do agree on them being ‘‘anti-fun’’, although removing them completely I wouldn’t like either.

Durability

This has been nerfed to the point where it is a non-issue.

  • Reduced durability loss.
  • Reduced repair costs.
  • Increased drop rate of repair powder.
  • Increased durability on tools.

Furthermore, in the starting area the repair costs are free. Having another realm in the starting state removes durability costs 100%. There is a rune which repairs all your gear. If you keep a utility weapon durability is a non-factor with how potent this rune is.

I’d actually prefer durability to become relevant again and have this feeling of being punished for playing recklessly. The system at launch kept you on your toes as a player. I’d much rather have that version of durability back.

Healing

The game has some elements from a survival game, the resource gathering. Just make sure to gather resources as you progress through areas so you are less likely to run out of them. It’s also a part of the player’s responsibility to ensure they have enough healing items especially before a boss fight.

But, there are some locations where it is easy to farm food items:

  • Starting zone beach area, crabs and fish.
  • The area below Warrick features a shrine with quite a few herbs.
  • The area below the quarry features a small garden with various greens.
  • Marin woods for meat.

If those aren’t enough you can always buy food resources at Gordon’s.

As for losing muscle memory, I highly doubt you lose muscle memory in the span of a few minutes. Sure, you might forget some boss mechanics but, this can also happen during a fight. Now I do understand that being out of resources can create a situation where you as a player lose your focussed state.

But, I still believe it is the players responsibility to bring enough healing items, flasks and other buffs. We see this in MMORPG raiding as well.

As for the estus flask suggestion, I personally don’t like it. However, I have to acknowledge that various players have expressed frustration with the healing mechanic in particular:

Yet, these are mostly likely from Soulslike player’s who haven’t had much experience with RPGs.

I will say that one of the best suggestions in those posts is:

Simply don’t use healing items for the first couple fights to learn the boss’ moves.

As for the future, we will be getting a farming system which should lessen the grind for food resources. And, provide easier access to higher tier food resources.

Building Timers

I’m on the fence on this.

On the hand I would like to see the building/upgrades visually represented in the game. With builders gathering at the build site, making plans, scaffolding and Maker Danos giving directions. More immersive elements and such.

And, on the other hand I dislike the timers but, more so from the pov of people who work 9-5. I can imagine some people coming home and want to progress on the game and then have to wait several hours, which means waiting until the next day.

Closing Words

I 100% agree with @death_the_kid on treating this game as a survival ARPG, think of V Rising, and not a Soulslike. There are others things to do and preparation before boss fights is the player’s responsibility.

My best advice would be to be smarter with using your resources like food and flasks:

  1. Don’t use healing items and flasks for the first few attempts to learn the boss’ mechanics.
  2. Once you get the hang of the fight use healing items sparingly.
  3. And, when you think you can beat the boss, go all in on healing items and flasks.
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Hey, thanks for sharing your feedback! :pray:

All of your issues have already been talked about in the forum. Feel free to stick around and take part in some conversations. :smiling_face:

Here’s my take on the topics you addressed.

Durability

I don’t like it either. It adds to the game, by giving you a money sink and serves as a punishment for dying. Adds a little bit to immersion. Also can be a tension escalator (oh my equipment is about to break - better not die now). Also rewards a defensive, not run in and spam the boss to death playstyle. But, for me personally the resulting lose more dynamic (or feeling forced to unequip your gear until you know a boss) and added tedium is more loss than the mechanic’s upsides are a gain, but that is just my pov.

Like the idea of being able to “bolster” your equipment! Would bring most of the upsides and feel positive, deliberate, instead of tedious - This time i can beat the boss, so let’s invest in this attempt by bolstering my equipment and go all in!.

Healing

I got no problems with a food (ressources) as a healing system. It is, as @RomoloHero said. You have to manage your resources wisely. My problem is, that the game has multiple ways to heal directly and indirectly already (abilities, regen, health on hit/block/parry)… So why not make its supposedly main healing system more interesting and customizable to your playstyle?

Timers

Same as with durability. I get what they can add, it just feels too artificial to me. To be sure, I don’t have anything against timers and timebased events in general, i just think, that most things with timers should relate to game time not real time. I want to be able to game those mechanics (day/night cycle, activities that pass time, activities that progress timers). It should matter that i play and how i play, not my ability to check the clock now and then / switching realms / changing my windows clock.

Final Words

Criticism to criticism can always be a bit harsh. Don’t let it go to your head. Most people on forums are emotionally loaded. Imo it’s still always valuable to share your experience.

Most things have benefits and drawbacks and a lot comes down to personal preference. Most people are also afraid of change. Which is why some more drastic changes might not happen and also why i mostly suggest tweaks and additions, rather than straight up removals / replacements.

Keep on sharing feedback and have a good one!

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TL;DR I like exploring and combat and even base building, but I don’t like spending 10 minutes running back to town comparing stats on my 12 pairs of gloves to enjoy 1 minute of gameplay

so I was looking for the actual anti-fun mechanics like the limited inventory system early game vs the wide range of resources and the unsexy kind of shortstacks (asking for 10 mushroom soups and 10 mushrooms a day but god help you if you have more than 25 in your inventory) . the fact I go resource searching and have to throw away diamonds and emeralds because I can’t find enough clay and have to run back to the town every 5 minutes because I have too many low level pants from killing crabs and can’t just turn them into upgrade materials instead… also the upgrade materials sharing a bag with the crafting materials. but then I figure “Oh I can just drop off most of my stylish extras like my fancy hat collection into the community chest! oh wait no I can’t because the community chest is full now” so now you’re trying to break me of loot goblin habits, but also asking me to grind out tree logs? What is the point of all these random loot drops if I’m not allowed to pick them up and none of them are a spear?

spoiler warning:

you can buy a house and store everything there. but there are bugs with switching houses, so i’d recommend saving some silver coins, getting one of the 2 near the main plaza, put some chests in, and you are good.

also, i think there are plans to work on stack sizes in storage, see here:

yeah I found this out an hour of gameplay after posting this but it does still hold true of “Early” game being 1 minute of looting, 10 of managing. I also found out weekly challenges give ichor to expand our inventory, so maybe mention that somewhere ingame?