I Can't See a Good Solution To Solving Enchanting At All With Current Loot Systems

Wicked Feedback
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The way this game works I straight up can’t think of a solution because there have been decent quality enchanting rework ideas thrown around in here & Reddit. But the problem with current enchantment isn’t quality it’s purely quantity.

The problem is even if you have 25 different types of longswords in Diablo/POE/Grim Dawn or anything else, in essence it’s 25 of the same weapon. There’s no difference in moveset or utility it’s all the same weapon, therefore one roll out of 25 being good is a good ratio. Yes shit like Nioh/Wo Long/Ronin exists but even though those games have actual movesets + affixes + RNG, your moveset is based off a skill tree. Meaning the weapon is again removed from mattering in terms of utility, the only thing that matters again is the roll on it, and all weapons of the same type are once again lumped together.

This game though is entirely unique and that’s problematic. If I get 25 scythes in Grim Dawn & each scythe is technically “unique” but in essence I have 25 of the same weapon all that changes is the design. If I get 100 scythes in this game though, the further you get in the game the more frustrating the drop, because you’re adding tiers of each scythe dwindling that 100 loot pool. Tier 1 only have to deal with T1 scythes, so you have 100 of the same scythe, potentially the one you want. Once you get to T2, suddenly the number of scythes you may want is divided in half(50 T1 scythe, 50 T2 scythe). T3 now you have (33, 33, 34) of each scythe from the tier, and this pattern continues. And this even assumes you can use them all, which you can’t cuz obviously weapons are stat-based

Even if you upped the drop rate to astronomical levels, the problem of the drop you know you don’t want occurring will always be there because you’re not technically getting a “bad scythe” you’re getting a “bad weapon”. What I mean is if I want a T2 scythe, and I keep getting T1s or T3s, it is no different than if I want a scythe in Grim Dawn but keep getting clubs. The moveset aka the utility of the weapon creates a hard divide between your lootpool & thus your satisfaction of the grind. Each weapon is practically its own category, not an alternative weapon in the same category.

The problem with enchanting is it almost necessitates a bad weapon, there is no ARPG/MMO in existence that lets you keep the same 10 weapons and just keep iterating on them. Somewhere along the line you get a better roll and you trash something. Being forced to trash something is an inevitability in MMO/ARPGs, we have to have junk because the economy is built that way. Give us too much control(like exaltation) and suddenly as long as you get the affixes you want even if they’re the worst roll, it’s now a diamond encased in turds, the exaltation is the pressure washer.

You want crafting to matter, but it has to compete on the same terms as items that are loot-only but crafting necessitates an extra time + resource sink. My own band-aid would be to make crafted weapons stronger by letting us reroll-their enchantments while looted items can’t. But that’s nothing more than a band-aid I came up with before. I wish Moon Studios good luck here, I think the game will still be good and well received, but to be a true ARPG they have to solve what I think is the most difficult game design conundrum I’ve seen in the past 20 years.

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Why shoot for the 100% perfect enchant when 50% will clear all the content just fine? Until they add massively more difficult content, you can clear the current content with what’s in the game so far and I imagine they’ll keep up with higher tier enchants, runes, etc. They don’t need to make it easy or even all that possible to get the best effects you can get. Because pretty good is good enough for the challenges they’ve provided.

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Yeah I agree with you there, but this is an ARPG, it exists to cater to minmaxxers and people who want to grind. So you have to build it somewhat for them in mind in terms of game depth & complexity while balancing for casuals.

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How do you feel about the new system added in the Crucible update where you can max roll the enchants? Doesn’t that help relieve the issue a bit because you don’t need to roll high, you just need to roll the stats you want in general.

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Feels great to do, terrible band-aid solution. If ANY MMO/ARPG had exaltation the genre would be dead, the very concept of min-maxing would vanish from that game completely. You wouldn’t be chasing any high.

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Last Epoch really has a solid crafting system. You can easily get half of your god roll because of it and then the perfected roll is the chase. I don’t want Wicked to copy it verbatim but it definitely should influence the future of the crafting system.

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If you implement a crafting system like last epoch’s then the drops stop being meaningful at all for serious buildcrafting, there’s a massive divide then you’ve caused because if you can fully influence the crafting, why bother running around for chests? Just make money craft and influence each one, money is one manageable consistent resource, chests well that’s pure RNG.

The luscious crafting of LE & any diablo-like(in comparison) only works because it hinges on any weapon you come across being able to replace what you’ve currently got no matter the elbow grease. You have to understand that, if you have scythe#053 it works just like any scythe#whatever in the field therefore the field is an opportunity. The venn diagram of weapons you can make & get are one complete(mostly) circle. Wicked doesn’t have that. If I have blood rusted sword I need to only get blood rusted sword I might not be happy with the azure blade. But you obviously can’t just remove azure blade from the loot pool, it has a unique rune, moveset, range, timing, etc someone else might like. Animation makes balancing this game a fucking bitch

I’m not even sure that if every weapon could be craftable it would change anything because part of what makes the diablo-likes what they are is the shitfest of affixes and the fact abilities are largely untied to them. A weapon with no affixes is not a real weapon in those games, but here you’re not considered totally abnormal for just having a well-infused white weapon. The runes of a white-weapon can actually be a huge bonus.

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yes that’s last epoch’s drop system I’m aware, not this games, I’m transplanting the mechanics across to here. Are you saying you want to lock a different tier of item between yellow & purple?

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The one thing of merit is I’m actually not totally against the idea of all weapons being craftable but weaker than field weapons. If all looted, non-white weapons are guaranteed 4+ affixes & crafted delegated to only 2 positives. But then that makes this game crafting heavy instead of loot heavy which is a different thing to balance for. Not necessarily a bad thing, just the designers gotta rethink it now.

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I understand where you’re coming from but making a build around weapons also throws away the idea of a “classless” system. They should all play an equal part.

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if the gear becomes insignificant such that you only ever need one…you just have a soulslike is the thing. I think regardless this game will be good, but if it wants to be a long-lasting ARPG and not just a one-and-done soulslike it needs A grind of some sort.

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The plan is for the game to last 5-10 years after 1.0. That is definitely not an Elden Ring or Remnant situation. Yes it’s not like Diablo but it’s closer to that than the standard 2-3 year support cycle.

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Yeah, and this problem will only get worse as more weapons/armors are added to the game. There has to be more accessibility to white gear. There are so many ways to achieve this, but, enchanting makes matters worse as they multiply their RNG with each other.

To also add to your problem statement. Imagine us right now and having a fully enchanted, infused, exalted T3 Greatsword. Okay, now T4 drops and a new shiny Greatsword has a moveset you like even more…

Also exalting only fixes the issue at the end of the whole chain of actions, if that makes sense. The entire process you go thru leading up to exalting is still scuffed.

The issue also lies in the fact that there are so many ways to change it that you don’t know which will lead to the best outcome. Make everything craftable, comes with it’s own problems and doesn’t adress the issue if finding the item. Disenchanting + crafting creates a loop of enchant → disenchant → enchant → disenchant which makes it way too easy. It is multiple systems that aren’t working well together. The question then becomes which is the biggest problem. I think reworking enchanting should be the starting point. And, then look at white gear availability and crafting.

True, but part of the issue is also that shooting for the 50% feels like, at least for me, shooting for 100%. And, people always want to optimize and maximize. I am one of them as it triggers me knowing the weapon can be better.

I hate how complex this issue is :joy:

Blue’s and purple gear found in chests = vendor trash for me. Even this: Suggestion: Deconstruct, Dismantle & Disenchant Gear does not fully solve the issue of making blue/purple drops feel awesome. You just get resources/recipes from it. The sheer amount of RNG on the affixes on blue and purple gear are the issue. If they were grouped like Suggestion: Affixes grouped under Prefixes and Suffixes (Titan Quest) it makes blue/purple gear relatively more usefull as you have standardized affix groups. So the probability of finding something good increases exponentially. However, it creates new problems and doesn’t adress other issues. Like you mentioned with not each and every longsword being the same. Good luck finding the weapon/armor you want with the specific Prefix/Suffix combo you want. The odds are better, but finding the specific weapon/armor still is horrible. They could make the zones tiered zones so they always and only drop specific tier items. That could be a step into the right direction. They would also then need to review the amount of items that exist in each tier. Maybe make Finley a daily merchant or let us make requests for what tier of goods are sold at vendors, let us refresh daily or make it refresh after X hours.

Point being → it needs multiple solutions in conjunction with each other. It is a multifaceted issue.

They could also make blue/purple items drop as blank slates. So no affixes but just a workable base.

Crafting Focussed

I personally prefer crafting gear > finding gear as it adds an element of interaction. Especially since RNG of finding good gear is too random. Instead add a bucketload of depth to crafting, but make it so that the good crafting components come from chests and other drops. So we get that WOW factor from farming chests in the wild and then convert that to crafting something cool with that drop.

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As I see it, the game right now has some loot issues. However, the existing groundwork already provides decent solutions, it just needs more polish.

The first loot problem is that we cannot target farm most gear. Right now gear is devided in 3 groups - buyable, craftable & dropped. Gear that can be bought or crafted is comparatively easy to get and is in almost endless supply. (I know some crafting materials are hard to get, like boar or stug parts, however this is EA related and should fix itself when new zones are added.) Thus, gear that exist only as a drop is the real issue.
This rises the question: How to improve gear drops?
Solution: All gear, weapons and armor, that can be bought or crafted should be removed from monster/chest drop tables. Vendors should sell exclusive gear. Crafting should provide exclusive gear. Take Claymore for example; it can be bought, crafted and found as a drop. If Claymore is excluded from drop tables in return it improves the odds for loot that exist only as a drop.
Furthermore, drop tables could be made map/zone specific. This change would devide one huge loot pool into fewer smaller ones with improved odds for each individual item.
The size of the 3 different gear categories could also be adjusted with more vendors and/or crafring recepies.

The second problem are enchantments.
I see some suggestions to be able to influence the affix pool during the enchantment process. I am against this idea, as it would defy the whole purpose of RNG loot. The gem system gives the player some controll over gear. Yes, gem infused gear is weaker than perfect enchanted gear, however I think this is a fair compromise between controll and power.
The enchantmens themselves require a more extensive revisit. Here are the issues I could identify:

  1. “Gain copper on kill/damage” or the new “Experience gain/loss” are undesired affixes and only act as a filler/bloat. All filler effects should be removed. A pool with fewer yet meanigful effects is always better than a large pool filled with mostly nothing.
  2. “Stagger/knockdown resistance” affixes seem not to work at all atm; it is also not clear, whether those should provide a chance to resist the effect or reduce its duration. Another offender in this category would be “Increased cold potency”. An affix should be working and worded properly.
  3. “Stamina regeneration improved” or “Gain 2% health on dodge” have a sound concept, yet the base values are just insignificant to be considered. Stamina regeneration affix goes up to 15% and scales of the base 30 stamina/second increasing it to a whooping 35. Health on dodge just pales in comparison with “Health on damage dealt” or even “Health regeneration”. An affix should be strong enough to compete. Otherwise it’s just a filler.
  4. “Increased focus gain” or “Reduced food cooldown” are both strong and desired. They both can be rolled on blue as well as purple gear, just with different max values. This devalues this affix on blue gear and makes it less competitive or desireable. On the other hand “Increased armor/health” is also very strong, yet it can only appear on blue items and thus increases the value of blue gear. In my opinion, blue and purple affix pools should be separated in order to not compete with each other in terms of power as well as purpose.
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Depends, if you can’t do it limitless but have to farm a resource for that ( maybe ichor?)

I don’t like LE’s crafting much. I know it gets you there, but also limits you too much and gets annyoing once you have a somehwat good item and need to sift through garbage from now on. T6/7 is an annoying farm as well as legendary potential. too few drops in between. you really have to be addicted to the game

I think so too i think wicked needs a unique solution to what it already has to offer and i think we should take a step back toss everything every other game does and work with what we currently have…

So I would support…

A More Modular Approach to the Discussion

Plagued Rolls As A Separate Enchant Process

A gamble where you can brick your good gear and turn it into amazing gear with one detrimental downside.
This at least fixes the annoying plagued variants popping up. you could also make the rolls base on the already enchanted version, giving rngesus a bit more guidance (it’s not vaaling, it’s ichoring that mofo up :wink: )

I will create a new topic for this. thanks @BowUser

@ShortCat i encourage you to do the same for idea. maybe you can split it into 2 topics?

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Them allowing target farming won’t change anything without a density increase to enemies or chests either way. Because in diablo-likes your loot table from hour 1 to hour 1000 is technically the same. You get stronger gear, but take Nioh 2 for example, it is the same 14 weapons from beginning to end, the same 14 categories. As of right now we have in effect 100+ categories of weapons diluting each other. And from data mining we already know there’s gonna 250+ categories before 1.0. You could combine the entire dark souls trilogy and there wouldn’t be that many weapons, it’s horrifying to think of the implications of what this will do to the loot table.

Making drop tables zone specific is also a bad idea, how do you communicate to the playerbase(remember we’re not the playerbase, we’re a bunch of hardcore nerds) that even though the enemies in Tir are the exact same as the shallows, the shallows drop only “X” tier or type of gear, while Tir drops “Y” tier/drop of goods. Also if that’s the case and it’s tier locked, well then the guy who wants to farm T1 goods is at a vast disadvantage to the guy farming in Tir. The guy farming in Tir gets T6 loot that even if he doesn’t want, can sell for lots of money, while the T1 guy is essentially broke.

Add more dumpster to the fire, the fog of war system doesn’t work with this either because it only covers an area, as you’re clearing another. I want to make it clear I think this is a good idea, it makes people explore and learn every biome for secrets, not just one. But that also means it makes target farming a bitch, you’re getting told that even though you only want the T2 katana, you have to go clear other biomes for 15-30 minutes before it fogs up. Meaning your grind until you get like 20 katanas is: Glades → nameless → Glades → Tir → Glades → havenport, etc, etc, etc.

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I also heared there should be close to 250 weapons in the finished game. If you devide those 250 weapons equally between vendors, crafting and loot then we are talking about ~80 weapns spread across all the zones. If you put some of them behind certain bosses or puzzle/dungeon reward chests you can reduce the number even further.

Fog of war is indeed a problem. However, right now you can circumvent it with multiple relms. Personally, not a fan of the idea to farm multiple relms for vendors and such.

Agree on the fact that a player farming low lvl zones will get less. Also agree that it would not be transperent on what gear could be aquired in every zone.

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My hot take was against your or someone else’s idea of LE style crafting + making everything craftable at the same time. If we only make everything craftable without large-scale crafting overhauls then I think we’re at a better place than we are currently, but it doesn’t solve the scarcity problem of the fact steadily-diluted loot pools exist. So the more you play, the harder it is to get the weapon/recipe you want. It also doesn’t solve that you’re still stuck with a purely RNG enchantment system vs a game where resources/weapons are far more rare than in diablo-likes and the looted weapons are way too often worse than self-enchantment. 15 minutes in GD and I’ve got a full inventory, 15 minutes here and I’ve touched one biome.

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i suggested it at least 10 times in different threads about the same thing we are discussing here, but why not let us influence the outcome of enchanting by investing specific gems.

like a recipe of some sort. when you use 2 red gems additionally to your silver cost, you get guaranteed one out of the i dont know 6(?) HP/healing focused affixes. Use 2 green gems, and you get 1 affix to be a guaranteed stamina perk etc.

u still have 3 random perks, and it could end up being shite, but u have a way to influence the outcome and statistically less trash when enchanting with a built in mind.

also: yes to removing craftables from vendors and drops and all that. everything should be worth its OWN way of aquiring. would also make the saturday merchant useful.

next: crafted gear should always at least be “blue” with the possibility to later skill a “blacksmith” perk or something to improve the outcome quality and reduce crafting costs.

re-roll: re roll should be a thing. i like monster hunters approach (on gems there). when u want to reroll a gem, you need amount X gems of the same or higher category. those are used up and out comes one new rolled gem. so use that for gear here. want a new helmet? well, use 3 enchanted helmets to get 1 new one of same “type” (plate, leather etc.). that is a fine balanced way imo to reroll things. give the opportunity to do so, gives “trash” enchants a new value and is not too cheap.

those are my 2 cents :slight_smile:

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I think Enchanting & Crafting are probably the 2 most discussed topics on the forums. We all seem to want more depth to both and a little control over some elements of enchanting.