Parry and future nerfs

Wicked Feedback
1

Hello

I’m not sure if any devs would see this, but I wanted share my opinion on nerfs.

I think, the parry nerf was a bit too much.

I don’t personally use parry at all, but seeing it nerfed this bad makes me think that other strong builds will be nerfed eventually.
That makes me question how far they will keep nerfing everything and if the builds are going to be fun in the future.

And thats my main point.
New players deserve to experience the op and fun builds that I experienced, and not the nerfed and boring version of them.

I have to say, Im not sure if future updates and gears will make parry even more strong. Maybe devs nerfed it for that reason.

Sorry for the scuffed suggestions, this is my first time ever making an account to give feedback. Thats how much I love the game. But please, don’t make the game unfun for new players (not me but my friends and others) just because youtubers or pros in end game call it OP.

So please consider my feedback and revert the nerf or balance it less harshly. I have seen way to many games ruin their fun potential for unfun changes for their pro players who always be pro no matter the amount of nerfs they get.
Thanks.

2

Honestly, I wish they would remove parry if they’re not going to make it easier to use since it’s just something I don’t see myself every having the patience to master using.

I don’t have split-second timing. At least, not in the heat of battle. I’m usually way too early, but I can’t make myself wait or I end up too late. When something is difficult, I tense up because I don’t like failing, dying, and running back over and over again. That tension combined with the option to dodge or block (if you’re using a shield) means that I’ll never choose to parry because I know it’s like a 90% chance that I’ll mess it up over and over and get too frustrated to continue trying.

I just default to dodge or block. The third choice is just too much and offers too much risk. If they made it a longer window that was easy to use with a cooldown so you couldn’t just use it exclusively, that wouldn’t hurt anyone and you’d be able to use it comfortably every few attacks or choose a particularly nasty attack that you can’t really dodge or block. It would still require skill and strategy, but not split-second timing.

The fact that other people can exploit parry to kill bosses without attacking just means the disparity between players is too great to naturally facilitate. Games should be designed to allow players of varying levels of skill to be somewhat close together so that it’s not hardcore versus casuals. That disparity creates toxicity and toxic communities in games push away players and kill games.

In any game, I like to feel realism that my character can demonstrate badassery without me needing to micromanage split-second timing and complex rotations that I can’t focus on while constantly being attacked.

3 Likes
3

I don’t think removing it is a good solution.

Many things are exploitable currently to kill a boss. Some are way easier than parry and I wont name them cause I don’t want them nerfed.

I am bad at parry while others are good at it. That’s totally fine IMO. I wouldn’t want something to be removed because I don’t use it.
I am good at other things and others may be bad at it. that’s fine too I don’t want them to nerf my playstyle.

If anything I don’t want them to nerf the parry, I want every thing to be usable for the right player. That was my point.

I want all the builds to be super good when someone invest in them.

3 Likes
4

I somewhat agree as a parry playstyle fan myself . I agree and think parries are too exploitable in the current version of the game . I think the difficulty to parry is fine and it feels nice to execute . However I do agree with you that the options you have in a fight are too limited . More often than not parrying is just the best thing to do in a fight , it staggers the boss and gives you focus but that isn’t that fun . It’s strength is something it should innately have as a reward for players’ split second reaction time but it shouldn’t be the go to option for all the bosses. I often find that my damage pales in comparison to hitting a parry and using a weapon art, and that’s not very engaging . I rely too much on parries because it feels like i don’t do much damage without them but that’s just my opinion .

5

Many players can’t master the timing so I would prefer if they don’t make it easier to use, that they just remove it entirely.

I realize they won’t do it just for me, but that’s what I would want since having a feature in a game that’s inaccessible to me just makes me feel handicapped. They have accessibility features for people who are actually handicapped, so why not?

If they were to make it easier to use (such as increasing the parry window from like 0.2-0.5 seconds to 1-1.5 seconds), it would be fine to add a short cooldown (such as 4-6 seconds only after successfully parrying) to prevent exploiting. That would bring it in line with every player and also prevent the elite players from exploiting it.

This would allow players to save parry for the particularly nasty attacks that are too large to dodge and too hard-hitting to block (if they even have a shield).

6

Oh no don’t get me wrong I 100%$ agree with you that parrying isn’t something that many players can’t or don’t want to spend the time mastering . I just think that as it stands for someone like myself who enjoys games that allow me to parry attacks as an expression of skill . In this game , however , i find it often outweighs my other options in my kit and feel somewhat forced to rely on it . Removing it entirely or making it a little easier doesn’t seem like a very good long term fix though , maybe they should make stamina deplete a boss’ poise instead of outright staggering every time . It is a tricky problem to balance but the poise idea could be a good solution methinks .

7

I don’t feel a game should have mechanics that capitalize on a disparity between players being able to use or not be able to use a feature simply due to digital dexterity and split-second timing.

Disparity creates toxicity and toxicity is already too abundant without people being separated by skill and mocked with comments like “get gud” every time they address their complaint that they simply can’t master a feature like parry.

I am basically offended that it’s like an accessibility-required feature without accessibility settings, but I’m not handicapped (I just feel like it when it comes to parry).

I even came up with a solution that allows everyone to use it and prevents overly skilled from exploiting it.

Simply increase the parry window from like 0.2-0.5 seconds (or whatever it is) to 1-1.5 seconds and give it a 4-6 second cooldown on successful parry so it’s not used too frequently.

Everyone wins.

You’ll have to strategically save it for the particularly nasty skills that are too wide to dodge or too hard-hitting to block with full effectiveness, but nobody will be complaining they can’t master the timing and the elitists won’t be exploiting the game by parry-killing bosses without attacking.

8

really good point on the disparity between players . I do think that gating a much more efficient tactic behind a difficult mechanic is a bit much . something should be put in place to prevent boss cheese by spam parrying but i think instead of making the option easier but less effective to accommodate for those who don’t use it there should be more options for different playstyles . i. e . staggering bosses with heavy hits on a tankier build , or exploiting a boss’ weakness with certain spells on a spellcaster . in my opinion a cooldown on the parry isn’t a bad idea , but it isn’t the solution to a broader issue with the combat as a whole . ( also thank you for your thoughtful response you bring up a lot of good points ) :purple_heart:

9

There’s nothing wrong with separate mechanics for players with different talents. If you want easy, use block. If you want hard, use parry.

One size fits all is dumb. What we have right now is perfect.

So yes, like the OP says, please don’t nerf parry too much, just make it do what it do. Because parry is harder to land right now, make it do something slightly more vile to the foe, or, something slightly better for yourself.

I use block. I don’t have time to care about parry. But don’t dumb it down, please.

3 Likes
10

They nerfed parrying? I didn’t even notice, can someone direct me to where they said they nerfed parrying so I can read it for myself?

1 Like
12

Yes there was. Sorry I wasn’t around to share it but some legend did.

It’s not that bad but def not as strong as before.

13

Personally, I’m not even bothering with parrying, not in the game’s current state. It takes a lot of practice to learn and execute the parry timing correctly, and give how severe the punishments are for failure, there isn’t enough opportunity for repetition and muscle memory building before you’re killed and sent far away.

Other parry-based combat games have handled their defense systems better, such as Sifu. Sifu gives you a whole virtual arena in which to practice against opponents with no threat of death, so you can build proficiency. Sifu is also brutally difficult, but it is fair because it gives you an opportunity to practice. It’s a better-designed system.

I think Wicked’s devs should add a grace window on either side of the parry threshold. A perfect parry opens your opponent up to attack, like it does now. A parry slightly too early or too late won’t open your opponent up to attack, but the damage to you will be nullified. And different visual signals can be used to inform the play whether they parried too early or too late, so that the player can learn via feedback and build proficiency.

1 Like
14

Unfortunately, Wicked inherited soul’s feast or famine parry. I like how Ghost of Tsushima did it, which is regular parries are easier to pull off, but perfect parries get you the reward. Also, some attacks can’t be parried, forcing you to dodge (and this is made obvious by the UI), which helps discourage parry spammers.

15

Yes, Ghost of Tsushima is another excellent example of parrying done well.

16

Parrying currently is a high-risk high-reward option. I think if it’s buffed too far, you’ll cheapen the skill expression of parrying. “Partial parry” systems lowers that risk/reward.

I like that it’s difficult. I like that you have to explicitly practice parrying every single attack of each enemy if you want to be confident in tight situations. I like it when games have a high skill ceiling to work towards.

1 Like
17

I agree. High skill ceilings can be a fun feature to implement in a game (as a dev) and aspire to (as a player). Sifu is an example of that.

The problem with Wicked is that you don’t have nearly as much control over your own character as you do in Sifu. In Wicked, move sets are different across weapons and not customizeable. Spells are only partially transferrable, and impossible to completely remap to your own preferences. And there are no opportunities to practice parrying outside of combat itself.

As someone who has both been in a lot of fights (in my youth) and trained in martial arts for decades, I can tell you this: a real fight is a terrible place to learn how to fight. There’s no repetition, and the consequences for failure are steep.

If, as a dev, you’re going to have a high skill ceiling, then you must remove all other forms of randomness from the game, so that success or failure comes down to the skill of the player as much as possible.

1 Like
18

“In Wicked, move sets are different across weapons and not customizeable. Spells are only partially transferrable, and impossible to completely remap to your own preferences.”

Can you elaborate? I’m not sure how this is relevant

“And there are no opportunities to practice parrying outside of combat itself.”

Just find a single enemy that’s isolated, memorize all their attacks and practice parrying them for 10-20 minutes. Now you’re a pro. You might die a few times doing this, but there’s basically 0 penalty in dying in this game (outside of ego). The cost is so minimal. If you haven’t practiced parrying in no risk situations, don’t expect to land them in high risk situations.

You can add, like, a training dummy like Sekiro/Sifu have. There’s no harm of course, but unless there’s a dummy for every enemy type, I don’t see the point personally. if fighting games have taught me anything, it’s that people are generally too lazy to lab/practice.

“as a dev, you’re going to have a high skill ceiling, then you must remove all other forms of randomness from the game”

Where’s the rng here? You either hit the parry or you didn’t. (Unless you’re referring to EA bugs like wonky hitboxes [but you can also practice and get consistent against those])

Also, sorry, I don’t know how quoting works on this site.

19

I personally like this approach. In Lies of P if you hit a block at the correct time you got a parry. If you were too early you got a block. If you were too late you got hit unless it was in the grace window and you got reduced damage. This also moves the control to a single button.

  • Swap the controls between triggers and shoulder bumpers to remove dead zone.
  • Using a trigger for runes is better because these inputs are not time sensitive.
  • Keep parrying in the game. As it is, parrying is not required at all. I did it for a while but it is way too inconsistent so I am waiting for it to be tuned
  • I like the idea of practice but I think practicing on regular mobs while doing a gathering run suffices for me
20

Also, sorry, I don’t know how quoting works on this site.

No problem. Here’s a quick primer:

Hit “Reply” on the post you want to reply to, and that person will be tagged and notified of responses.

To cite specific parts of their post, hit the ( " ) button in the text editor and replace “Blockquote” with the text you wish to quote (via copy and paste). Leave the “>” symbol in there since that formats the quote for visibility.

In Wicked, move sets are different across weapons and not customizeable. Spells are only partially transferrable, and impossible to completely remap to your own preferences.

Can you elaborate? I’m not sure how this is relevant

Sure.

There are different weapon types in Wicked. Swords. Rapiers. Hammers. Maces. Staffs. Etc.

Weapon types have different melee moves in their move sets. Swings. Thrusts. Twirls. Overhead cleaves. Etc.

One of the problems I have is that weapons of the same type often have different moves.

So longsword #1 might have a swing, swing, thrust combo. And longsword #2 might have a thrust, swing, cleave combo. The two swords appear superficially similar and have similar weights, but they are handled differently by the character.

Now this, on its own, wouldn’t normally be a problem. Find a weapon that has a combo that you like and stick with it.

But the problem is, special Rune techniques are also hardbound to weapons. And Rune slots are limited: there are only four per weapon.

Let’s say you find a weapon that has a combo that you like, but you want different Runes on it. In most cases, at least one Rune slot (sometimes two) is already occupied. That means you’re stuck with those move forever, because removing Runes destroys the weapon they’re attached to.

So it is nearly impossible to customize a single weapon with both the melee moves and the Runes that you want.

This is a huge hindrance in a game where precision, preparation, and execution are critical to survival.

Does that make sense?

21

Yeah, I understand all that. I just wasn’t sure how it’s relevant to the parrying discussion.

Is the reasoning that, because you’re constantly getting acclimated to a changing build, locking one of the universal defensive & offensive mechanics behind a tight timing window is too demanding?