Making going back to Sacrament Fair

Introduction

Going back to Sacrament needs to be Fun & Fair.

Or at least the game doesn’t have to force us to constantly go back to Sacrament when we don’t want to.

In this topic I will analyze the problem, and propose two solutions, one is simple and obvious, and the other is complex, devised by me.

These solutions modify the durability system and inventory.

- Problems

Player is forced to return to the city for different reasons: repair weapons, clean inventory, and fix build.

The game forces the player to return to the city too often (especially due to inventory Problems), this worsens the Experience for most players.

But it’s also true that Sacrament has a whole ecosystem of things to do and it’s right that the player is encouraged to interact with it.

Weapon Durability Problems:

  1. Many people have misunderstood the function of the mechanic, taking for granted that it works like in other games (Negative association weapon with Durability and similar mechanics in other games and in fact). The fact that Tools and equipment have two different systems makes it easier to misunderstand.

  2. The only function of this system is to provide a punishment for death and a break when too many deaths occur in a row, but the break is experienced negatively by the player, and the punishment feels too disconnected.

  3. Players who are not skilled end up being punished even in the long run as they have to send more money to the blacksmith, thus making the game slightly more difficult for the non-skilled players and easier for the skilled players.

If you want to know more, I recommend you read the first part of this topic: What is the purpose of weapon Durability in NRFTW? (Is Death punish mechanic, but let's talk about it)

Inventory Problems:

  1. Many people simply dont’ find Inventory Management Fun.
  2. Punishes the player who explores well and carefully stores resources by making them return to Sacrament much more often.
  3. Getting the items doesn’t seem to be well thought out around the inventory capacity. There are many unnecessary redundant items that are just taking up space in your inventory, If you want to know more, I recommend you read this: The Crafting Materials are an Unintuitive Mess .

I have to say that this is one of the few cases where I see Mostly unanimous consensus.

The only defense of Inventory Management that I remember reading is that it’s not a problem if you do everything right.

Which I don’t think is a good argument, given that the real problem is that the process of “doing everything right” makes the game less fun.

- Simple Solution “Just Remove Them”

Removing Durability & Inventory limits.

This is in the complite opposite direction of the developers’ intention to make the player a real citizen of Sacrament.

But Maybe the developers’ intention was wrong from the beginning and giving the player the choice to become a full citizen or ignore Sacrament could be the best development for the game.

“Just Remove Them” Problems

There is no need to put items in chests.

The player may decide not to interact with Sacrament at all except to upgrade his equipment and buy items, which may not even happen since he finds already upgraded weapons and armor during the adventure.

And also makes all aspects of the house almost useless, and the house becomes mostly Flavor/Roleplay.

This betrays the developers’ intention to make the player a real citizen of Sacrament.

But it is also true that many have no problem having a house just for the sake of having a house, and moreover many use the house only as a place to store chests.

No death punishment. The topic of death punishment is a bit controversial:

  • Some say it’s unnecessary and that runback is enough of a punishment.
  • Others (including me) find that without punishment, there’s no fear of death, and runback isn’t enough. Since enemies don’t respawn, the player can, and when the run back is short is encouraged to, bang their heads against enemies until they’re defeated, without any sense of self-preservation.

I think self-preservation is essential to the combat experience, and when I find that having too small a death penalty can be detrimental to the game.

(I know not everyone agrees, be civil in the discussion, when you tell me why you don’t agree)

- My Solution “Tiredness Bar”

Durability is removed and a Tiredness Bar is implemented in its place.

The Tiredness Bar is a bar that fills up upon dying.

It can be seen by opening the vault and is shown to fill up every time you die.

The inventory is Infinite But the Tiredness Bar fills up more based on how much items you are carrying.

When it fills to 75%, the character becomes Tired and they will get a debuff:

Interacting with beds remove tiredness (just lie down, no need to wait).

The Debuff, It must be strong enough that the player notices the difference, but not so strong that he is forced to return immediately to Sacrament to remove the tiredness.

For example something like: The effects of enchantments (and gems) are reduced by 30%. OR Deal 15% less damage.

Beds still give buffs, BUT the Buffs instead of being timed they disappear only after the Tiredness Bar is filled to 50%, thus allowing you to keep the buff if you don’t die too much.

So with this system the player who explores well and collects all the resources is not punished for having obtained many items but is punished if they die with many items.

So you have to return to Sacrament only when the “Tiredness” Bar fills up not because the inventory is full.

The Tiredness Bar empties over time.

Items that previously interacted with Durability now interact with Tiredness

The Ichor is used to increase the capacity of “Tiredness” Bar instead of the inventory capacity.

I think that in this way, dying and having to return to Sacrament to take a break seems like a better experience, also because it is clear that it is a direct consequence of for having died many times, and resting still gives you a buff.

You have to return less often because you do not need to repair the tools every time you collect resources, the bed and the chests where you put the things are both in your house or in the Rookery, also seeing the character resting makes it more clear for the player that having to return to Sacrament is an opportunity to take a break and not just as a punishment, and also the damage nerf is not so high that you need to return immediately the player can also decide to stay until he fills the inventory.

Obviously given the new mechanics things like the position of the beds and when you find the good beds have to be need to be better positioned within the progression of the game given the current situation where you have to find the beds with RNG in Whittacker’s shop.

In particular There needs to be a temporary bed (maybe in a tent) somewhere in the starting area in case someone dies a lot against Warwick, or the player could start without this bar, and the bar is only introduced after you rest in the Rookery (and the beds in the Rookery should be usable).

“Tiredness Bar” Details

The maximum capacity of the Tiredness bar is 4000-7000 (small reminder that that the debuff activates after 75% so you need 3000-5.250 points to get the debuff).

Depending on the Amount of Icore you used you use upgrade it (+500 per Icore).

Every time you die without items it fills up by 300.

Any non-stackable item (Weapons, Rings, Armor, etc.) They add 10 points to your total every time you die.

For example if you have 35 of this items (the maximum that the current inventory can contain (small reminder that with this system I propose the inventory is infinite)) then every time you die you get 350 more tiredness.

Any consumable item (Food, Bombs, potions, etc.) & Embers, doesn’t add Any points.

Any stackable item (resources, gems, etc.) add 1 point to your total every time you die, for example if you have 20 pieces of wood then every time you die you get 20 more tiredness.

Every second the Tiredness Bar empties by 2 points (this is more significant than it seems, it’s probably even too much)

In practice, this means that if you die once every minute, instead of filling the bar by 300, you fill it by 180.
So, when fighting a boss, you can die 16-29 times (depending on the ichor spent) if you die once every minute, but if you die once every minute and a half, you can die 25-43 times before getting the debuff.

Small and Medium Repair powder become Coffee, using them empties the Bar by 200-500.

Large Repair powder becomes Energizing Powder using it empties the Bar by 2 every second for 1 hour.

Repair becomes Inner Peace, using it halves the amount of Tiredness taken on next death.

“Tiredness Bar” Problems

It needs to be tuned correctly to work as its best.

As a system it gives much more freedom to the player (in comparison with the current system), but it still puts restrictions that may not be appreciated.

… (I will add more as I read your opinions)

What do you think?

2 Likes

I should have tagged you all I hope you like this rework.

I like the idea, but it needs tuning.

For example I mostly die from unwanted fall damage while exploring, IMHO death from fall damage should not count at all since it’s already punishment enough that a mechanic that makes exploration so much less enjoyable is forced upon us by the tryhards that think unfun=challenge.

As someone who likes to gather a lot while I’m around, I think I’d fill up the whole tiredness bar in one single death, or at least go well above 75%.

I don’t think there’s any need to tie death count to inventory: if your intention is to go back less often to empty the inventory, your solution also give an incentive to keep going back and empty the inventory…

This is another topic, I agree especially with the Crucible, but it’s something that many don’t agree with and I don’t want to focus my attention on that aspect, “different deaths should have a different weight” is a statement that many wouldn’t agree with.

If I did the calculations correctly, (tell me if i’m wrong) in late game you should have about 40 (+400) non-commutable items, and about 500 cumulative items (+500) 1200 points when you die after exploring a whole area then you can die 3-5 times, if you use the rune you can die twice as many times and if you use the other items you can die even more.

Also your deaths are actually distributed throughout the exploration of the area, they don’t accumulate at the end of the exploration.

But if you exceed the limit you are not forced to go back immediately, the debuff is not so strong that makes the game unplayable.

If you die a lot and collect everything in one area you will probably have to go back to Sarment 2 times, while now even 4-5 times, and if you decide that you can tolerate the debuff you can also try to explore until you find something that you can’t beat with the debuff (presumably the boss).

This is where I’m not following. Sometimes I happen to have multiple stacks of 99+ items on me…

In your proposal I’d have an infinite backpack, but if that were true I’d be carrying around about 5K stackable items (and I’m counting only the ones I currently have and not the ones I had in the realm I deleted).

It would be far easier to tie tiredness to a fix number of deaths, if you tie it to inventory you’re just moving the problem instead of solving it.

This has never happened to me in the slightest, every time i go to empty my inventory the biggest stack of items i ever had i think was about 25 of wood but most of the stuff that was taking up my inventory didn’t make it to 5, I know the whole map, if you get to 99+ it’s because you haven’t placed the materials in the chest between one area and another.

By “Area” I don’t mean the whole map, I mean like “Lowland Meadows”, “Nameless Pass”.

I think it’s ok to go back to Sacrament after exploring a whole area.

I had previously put a cap on the maximum number of points, I was undecided between 1200 and 1500.

But then I thought, that adding such a limit encourages to keep all the items in the Inventory instead of placing them in the chests and therefore I did not put it in the topic.

So there’s no “infinite inventory”, you’re pretty much saying to add a row to the current inventory so every type of material can be stored at once.

I can stand behind that, in the end we’d still have to go back home now and then just to change the refineries’ materials, so it would not be such a disruption to empty the bags at that point.

No, this was my idea at the beginning but I wrote infinite because I mean infinite.

The reason is that adding a line makes the resource inventory functionally infinite but the equipment inventory not, so I opted for Infinite.

And since it’s convenient to return to secretly after exploring an area, I’ve tried to tweak the mechanics so that they work for most players (based on my experience).

I have a hard time how different really it is from just going back to repair, now you just go back to sleep it off?

how is this implementation really change anything? you are just going back to town here and there, the same way repair was

maybe im not understanding but if inventory is infinite how can it be “full” at any point, I guess you meant how much stuff you are carrying?

with this system it desensitize exploration, if I gather a lot then die it more impactful than if I just go out and kill?

At the end, the problem is quite the same, the game just “waste” my time with a meaningless mechanic that has no real cost or impact which is the same as repair, go to town to do X

Not really: ATM you also have to go and repair all the tools you use even if you do not die.

With his proposal only repeated deaths impose to go back and take a nap, while without deaths you’d go back to town whenever you’re done exploring and you want to check back in without being forced to.

1 Like

%100 agreed and really looking forward them to fix this on 1.0 I get that they wanna keep survival kinda invetory management feeling in the game but its a total mess rn at least they would make extract enchantment option free and it could store in the game as a data so we wont have to collect all the gears that we need for enchantments and we would spend our essence ember only for applying desired enchantments . This is just an example it can be implemented for many situations as well.

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So, Difference number 1 is visual language:

  • Having a single fatigue bar rather than many small durability bars is clearer and more immediate.
  • You can also see an animation of the bar filling up every time you die.
  • The associations that are made with durability in other games are removed.

Difference 2: is that instead of items breaking, which forces you to go to the city or to use the powder, when you’re tired you’re just a little weaker, if you decide to continue playing you can do so and the game is a little more difficult but totally playable not too much more difficult. The durability of the tools is also removed.

Difference 3: is the connection with the inventory. Since the inventory is infinite now it’s only tiredness that encourages you to go to sacrament, but at the same time you are encouraged to use chests to store items, and so the experience is much more streamlined.

Difference 4: is the fact that the bar empties over time, rewarding you if you die less often.

Difference 5: are the way item around it work Coffee is very similar as old Repair powder but Energizing Powder & Inner Peace Rune are totally different.

Difference 6: Is that since you use the bed the game is incentivized to use the bed buffs, and the beds are better implemented within the game, also the beds are already close to the chests so you don’t have to waste time going to places you don’t need to go.

No, because of “Difference 2” now you choose when to return, before if your weapon broke then you couldn’t explore anymore period. And because of the durability of the tools is also being removed. And also because Of Difference 4 & 5, and because the system allows you to die more times than before.

If you are referring to the fact that the punishment is no more serious than before, I know, I was compering to the “simple solution” which involves removing the system altogether.

Correct, Fixed, ty for telling me.

It encourages exploration much more than the previous system, because the inventory is infinite anyway, if you don’t die too much you’re free to explore much longer, and even if you die too much you can continue even with the debuff.

You can also use consumables and the rune to reduce the Tiredness Bar, allowing you to explore even longer without the debuff.

Doing this was almost useless before, since the inventory fills shortly afterward, so you had to return to Sacrament anyway.

Killing enemies first and then gathering resources could be an effective strategy if you think you’ll die often.

I also talked about the “simple solution” but in my opinion its downsides Are Worse than the downsides of the system I devised.

I think devs should test removing them, or at the very least you should try modding durability out and playing that way. I did it and the game didn’t change at all I just could play it more.

You still have to return to sacrament as every quest begins there and every path leads from it. So why does there need to be additional reason?

I think you need to think about this more. Right now with current game systems, why would you need to store items. You can only wear one set, you can only carry 3 weapons. Equipment spawns at your appropriate level. Any equipment you find if it’s better than what you have you can just wear it and if it’s worse throw it away. There is no benefit to storing it as it will just get worse than ur upgraded equipment over time. Once you have enchanted and upgraded equipment you won’t even consider wearing anything else. So housing system in that sense is already unnecessary.

In my opinion the problem with durability is that it’s effect on gameplay is very minor. The cost is small and distance to Sacra is always short. So durability doesn’t affect player behavior except by making them stop doing something fun to go to the city and interact with a menu.

Your solution makes this problem worse, since now the effect on the player is even smaller, so unless ur going for a boss fight it will be completely ignored.

In both of these cases devs should test removing them completely, before doing anything else with them.

I actually like the idea of the Tiredness Bar and would happily trade equipment durability for it.

But infinite inventory? God no! That sounds like a nightmare. It’s the exact opposite of what I want to see in the game.

A limited inventory forces you to sort through a small batch of items regularly, which keeps things manageable. If you remove that limit, eventually having to sort through a huge pile of loot becomes depressing, or even discouraging. I can easily see this leading to extreme behaviors: either infinite hoarding where players never discard anything, or people completely checking out of the loot system and just blind-selling everything.

And frankly, regarding immersion: carrying 35 pieces of armor on your back is already pushing the boundaries of realism, but an infinite amount? That completely kills the feeling of being in a grounded game world. It’s just too absurd.

No, I think the way to fix the inventory issue isn’t more capacity. It’s having fewer things to store. We need tools to manage our inventory directly in the field, so we don’t have to haul everything back to town:

  • we need more Essence Embers to extract the enchantments we want right on the spot, without having to store an item to reapply it. This would tie in perfectly with my suggestion: Revamping Enchantments to reduce hoarding (Codex/Scribe Table system)

  • we need a way to scrap mediocre items anywhere to turn them directly into stackable materials, maybe with the introduction of a new tool.

  • we could even have the ability to send a companion to town to sell a bundle of items for us, similar to how Torchlight handles it.

This would allow us to simply sort through our bags every now and then without interrupting the adventure.

The solution to the inventory problem isn’t to STORE MORE, but to give us the means to STORE LESS!

I understand fundamentally there is a few difference but yea, technically they are very similar, because nothing prevents you to continue to play after one item broke the same way you could continue playing if you are tired using your system.

the same way repair powder exist or repair rune

I think the small difference is your system you may not need to go back if you dont die for a certain amount of time and I guess that an upgrade to repairing which will occur no matter what

Im sorry if I may seem to be picking the flaws in your system even though it seem a good idea overall. Im just trying to point what feel similar or not :smiley:

Is it a better system? maybe. does it make dying more impactful? I dont think so
someone dying 15 times in a row in both system would just go to town and take time off
:+1:

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Nice write-up. :saluting_face:

I see both of your proposed solutions as an improvement, though I tend more towards the ‘get rid of it’ direction. (big surprise)

But through your topic I think I found the reason why I want to get rid of these systems:

Sacrament isn’t interesting to visit.

It’s nice, looks good, has a fun layout to explore, and I get my missions from it.

BUT (very nice quote btw):

The game forces me to go to sacra to repair gear, sell loot, and manage my inventory. And only selling loot is fun, cause I get a resource I like. The others are mostly just busywork.

So maybe all of these problems have a different source:
Moon wants us to visit and engage with sacra, so they made systems that make it so the player visits often.

Here is the issue: not visiting Sacra is punished by these systems instead of engagement being rewarded.

Moon should start looking into methods to reward visiting Sacra. For example, I dislike my house because it is a solution to the lack of inventory space. Or rather, Moon made my inventory so small that not owning a house feels like a punishment. They made a cure–the house–and to justify buying the cure, they also invented the disease: a lacking inventory. The cart is before the horse.

So let’s go into a direction of rewarding engagement with sacra. A simple idea: depending on the tier of bed you have in your house, you get a +5/10/15% max HP. Similairiliy a kitchen could improve food effects. Maybe if you get a courier donkey or do a sidequest a NPC will take some of your resources to Sacra each time you rest at a rift.

I feel like this issue of forced engagement is core to a lot of affiliated issues: inventory size, durability, and Sacra feeling useless.

What do you guys think?

PS. (un)related, a Siege of Sacra would be an interesting event that would get me more attached to the town.

Having a bigger inventory or less items would achieve the same thing.

If you are worried about having too much junk you can treat it the same way as you do now.

Ideally you wouldn’t get junk gear at all, but the game has essentially an mmo loot system so it would require more of a change than just expanding inventory slots.

I think I haven’t been clear enough about the core of my point. To me, the inventory should just be a buffer, an intermediate step between what we find in the game and what we actually do with it. Expanding the inventory only increases the time between sorting sessions.

What I am proposing is having ways to process our loot without needing to return to Sacrament, which, by the way, refers to the first two lines of the original post:

‘Going back to Sacrament needs to be Fun & Fair. Or at least the game doesn’t have to force us to constantly go back to Sacrament when we don’t want to.’

To achieve this, I would like to be able to process any item into the thing I ultimately want from it, from anywhere, freeing its inventory slot in the process:

  • Extract enchantments (we can already do that from anywhere but it still takes up a slot, which is an entire problem in itself and could be solved with a simple solution: Revamping Enchantments to reduce hoarding (Codex/Scribe Table system))

  • Break down loot into materials (without going to town, using a specific tool, which could be a nice new feature to be able to craft more)

  • Convert junk loot into money (without going to town, via a companion who sells it for us for example)

I am not trying to overhaul the entire loot system; that’s not the topic of this post.

My proposal simply aims to allow us to manage our inventory without returning to town, even while keeping a small, realistic inventory capacity that fits the game’s lore, and not just by making the inventory infinite, which honestly just sounds like a lazy solution.

Inventory management issue is easily resolved if you condense animal resources.
Siren carcass
Fish carcass
Human carcass
Wolf carcass
Deer carcass
Boar carcass
Bear carcass
Winged brood carcass
Pestilence carcass

Thats 27 items condensed into 9

The way it would work is you can take carcass back to town to a butcher, skinner or refiner that will extract pieces we normally get. Having rng range as to how many or which ones we get. Additionally, to just make mulch out of it that improves speed and quantity extracting from rest of the carcasses.

Regarding gear, same thing, introduce dismantling. Could be a rune utility skill, could special tool. Idea is to make armor dust, or weapon dust that we can use during crafting to boost gains, even pay to get specific facet or trade it at npc for money, embers, consumables, materials.

These two changes alone would greatly extend outdoor time.

In regard to durability, its in relatively bad spot, but fact that it has few enchants related to it gives me an idea. If you slowly degrade weapons performance (bigger stamina cost or performance drop) link it to negative connotations or completely remove it, that will negatively affect experience. A suggestion is that if you repair it at blacksmith, with smithys level increase he has chance to repair it beyond its durability increasing its lifespan, further letting enchantments scale off it and give additional performance boost. This will promote “paying for buff” service that helps stabilize player economy and reinforce value of money. Many games use repair as means to do just that.
Other major element is to have more weight, durability related enchants people would love to theorycraft around.
In addition, it’s an idea for a tool, someone who uses blacksmiths anvil and hammer can repair using armor/weapon dust and as tier of expertise with tool increases they could unlock new functions. To enchant the weapon. Using gem dust in addition to imbue buffs. Like elemental granting instant elemental status on next attack etc

In regards to “value of death” instead of penalizing, reward them for staying alive and surviving combat. Don’t force penalization, present reward that they can opt into.

New tool “Soul catcher” Jar that gathers experience, during combat, but slowly loses said experience as time between exp collection widens. Once full you can put a lid on it. Again, fundamentally incentivize player in desired activity, reward them with currency that they can exchange at store for items. Best way to make it a meaningful experience that people love engaging with is to dangle a carrot in front of them. Unique rune skills only found in that store, unique non-craftable gear pieces/weapons all sorts of materials etc