What is the purpose of weapon Durability in NRFTW? (Is Death punish mechanic, but let's talk about it)

Weapon durability is a mechanic that is universally hated in all games, especially because is Often implemented only because it’s a trope, without any benefit to the game (and is often justified as “realism”).

There are exceptions to this

In Minecraft, breaking your tools to build new ones is part of the game loop, similar to Zelda: BotWar & TotK, breaking weapons and finding new ones by stealing them from enemies is part of the game’s progression (and in these games too, although the presence of the mechanic is justified, it’s still not appreciated by players).

The only game I know where this mechanic is appreciated is Lies of P, where the weapon loses its edge and can be sharpened during combat (there’s even a power-up that allows you to deal significantly more damage when your weapon is fully sharpened), so essentially in Lies of P, sharpening is a combat mechanic.

In most games every time you hit something with a tool or weapon it loses durability and then needs to be repaired by the blacksmith or at a rest point, This system punishes you by making you waste time and sometimes resources just because you play the game.

The system of weapon Durability in NRFTW at first impression it seems the same, it’s more complicated than that.

Tools like pickaxes, shovels, fishing rods, and axes wear out every time you use them and every time you die. Which is useless and tedious, Tools should not have durability.

But Equipment like weapons, armor & shields only lose durability only when you die, which is actually an interesting system that has a couple of implications:

The first is that every time you die you lose a little bit of money because you need money to repair the Equipment.

The second one is that if you die often you have to take a break.

This system is better than the usual durability system because you are not punished for playing the game but for the mistakes you make.

Also making the player take a break when he dies a lot seems a good idea from a game design point of view, however, that it is a pause that is experienced as a frustrating punishment and not as an opportunity to calm down after the frustration of dying.

The system can be improved and I have some ideas on how to do so:

Summary of The Problems:
  1. Many people have misunderstood the function of the mechanic, taking for granted that it works like in other games (Negative association weapon with Durability and similar mechanics in other games and in fact). The fact that Tools and equipment have two different systems makes it easyer to misunderstand.
  2. The only function of this system is to provide a punishment for death and a break when too many deaths occur in a row, but the break is experienced negatively by the player, and the punishment feels too disconnected.
  3. Players who are not skilled end up being punished even in the long run as they have to send money to the blacksmith, thus making the game slightly more difficult for the non-skilled players and easier for the skilled players.

My idea is that durability is removed and a “tiredness” bar is implemented in its place.
This is an empty bar that fills up upon dying.

Passing a certain amount of time without dying causes it to slowly empty.

When it fills up completely, the character becomes tired and his attacks will deal less damage (not too dramatic, something between 10%-25% reduced damage).

Beds empty the bar, special beds increase the size of the bar (allowing you to die more times before the bar fills up) and still give buffs, but instead of being timed they disappear only after the bar is filled to a third, thus allowing you to keep the buff longer if you don’t die too much.

I think that in this way, dying and having to return to Sacrament to take a break seems like a better experience, also because it is clear that it is a direct consequence of for having died many times, and resting still gives you a buff, you do not have to spend money, you have to return less often because you do not need to repair the tools every time you collect resources, the bed and the chests where you put the things are both in your house or in the Rookery, also seeing the character resting makes it more clear for the player that having to return to Sacrament is an opportunity to take a break and not just as a punishment, and also the damage nerf is not so high that you need to return immediately the player can also decide to stay until he fills the inventory.

Obviously given the new mechanics things like the position of the beds and when you find the good beds have to be need to be better positioned within the progression of the game given the current situation where you have to find the blueprints with the RNG.

In particular There needs to be a temporary bed (maybe in a tent) somewhere in the starting area in case someone dies a lot against Warwick, or the player could start without this bar, and the bar is only introduced after you rest in the Rookery (and the beds in the Rookery should be usable).

My idea is inspired by the fact that beds are almost useless and that even after you find the most comfortable beds that give very strong buffs it doesn’t feel particularly natural to use them.

What do you think?

3 Likes

I like your “tiredness” idea, but as a hardcore player I wouldn’t be able to interact with that system because it’s tied to dying.

There used to be an MMO called TERA that had “stamina” system. If you died, your stamina was emptied, significantly reducing your life, mana, etc. But it also slowly drained if you fought continuously for hours. You had to take a few minutes break by a campfire to recover. It was neat.

But I have nothing against durability. It gives me nostalgic feeling of Diablo 1 and 2.

2 Likes

If you think about it, in Hardcore you don’t even interact with durability (except for tools) for the same reason you don’t interact with the “tiredness” xD.

The reason the “tiredness” doesn’t stack over time is that it doesn’t make much sense to punish the player just for playing.

It might be a good idea if the tiredness bar also filled when the player gets hit, but the problem with that would be that it could activate during a fight if the player isn’t careful.

The reason the nerf you receive isn’t so dramatic is that it doesn’t need to be. The psychological element alone (seeing the nerf icon) is enough to encourage the player enough to return to Sacrament regardless of the effect itself, as long as the nerf is real and noticeable.

Indeed. If changes are made to the system, it would be nice if hardcore players are considered.

I agree it’s a good idea.

Even better.

Overall, I wouldn’t mind seeing your “tiredness” idea implemented while keeping/improving the durability system.

1 Like

At min 1:20:20, @thomasmahler talks about the fact that the Death in NRFTW is maybe not punished enough, and that the current delayed punishment system is not understood/perceived by players as punishment for death.

Then he asks the chat if they think adding the “corpse run” mechanic (the same as Dark Souls, Hollow Knight, etc.) the chat has clearly said that they would not appreciate the change, I love the mechanic in Dark Souls and Hollow Knight but I agree that I don’t think this mechanic is right for NRFTW, Losing resources in NRFTW seems much grindier than other games that implement this mechanic.

But the problem remains that the game needs to give clear and immediate feedback to the player who dies that he has been punished.

The system I suggested in the topic solves the “clarity” problem but still does not provide immediate feedback.

I think we can learn from the Hollow Knight “corpse run” mechanic, without introducing the loss of resources:

When the Serim dies as in Hollow Knight he loses a part of his maximum focus, but not his resources, to recover his maximum focus he must defeat an entity that was born in the place where he died.

Obviously “the entity” must not be too strong otherwise it would be too frustrating and in the case of a boss fight it is born in front of the boss’s arena and not inside it, furthermore by defeating “the entity” it gives you back all the focus you had when you died and it heals the damage that the entity has inflicted on you.

What do you think, is this a good idea?

I like the ‘tiredness bar’ idea since it seems more grounded than a somewhat artificial gear durability loss.

I also like the corpse run idea because while providing you the tools to safely return to where you died (Thomas said you wouldn’t lose your equipped gear nor consumables), it also feels more punishing and grounded than gear durability loss. Given that there are some indescructible gear sets in the game, with some effort and planning ahead - you can avoid the consequences of constant failures altogether.

If you remember to activate the whispers you’re passing, retrieving the lost gear sack shouldn’t be much of a hassle: you don’t need to go far and you have the tools to get there.

I’m all for corpse run - maybe as a realm or difficulty level parameter to cater to all tastes ?.

But I’d also prefer the ‘tiredness bar’ over the current gear degradation system, since after a few failed attempts at beating Darrak, you still need to return to Sacrament to rest and rethink your strategy / upgrade your gear. It’s essentially the same ‘degradation system’ with shrinking damage output, but the thing being degraded is you, not your gear, which feels more believable and grounded than all of your inventory losing a flat chunk of its durability at once.

2 Likes

I really do not understand why they are fixated on the path to punish players for playing the game.

Sekiro (kindof), Remnant 1 & 2 didn’t have punishment for dying it and are one of the best soulslikes.

Also, this game is more diablo-like than souls-like.

This being said, remove durability and associated runes and enchantments, being punished for dying sucks, regardless of how well the system is implemented.

Obviously the basic punishment for death is the run back.

but I think that in a game like NRFTW where enemies don’t respawn when you die it doesn’t make sense as the only punishment.

On the other hand, it doesn’t make much sense to take money away from the player because it’s a long-term penalty for a mistake in the short term.

Having the punishment of returning to the city to let the character (and therefore the player) rest makes sense, but it must be said that the game already forces you to return to Sacrament too often due to inventory.

In my opinion, spawning an enemy at the last point where you died makes sense, because in NRFTW if you keep dying continuously, little by little you manage to kill all the enemies and move on. In my opinion, this addition would discourage players from using such a strategy and returning to the area later when they become stronger instead of continuously banging their heads against the wall.

1 Like

Remnant 2 spawned enemies when you died, but had no other punishment, but you could actually use this feature to farm EXP. Enemy respawn on death is annoying at first but once you get used to it you just ignore enemies and run back to where you died.

What I am trying to say is that the run back is the only thing that makes sense. Enemies will be ignored anyway if they respawn.

If you think about it, because of the durability enchantments, the NRFTW durability/repair is like the Lies of Pi repair, so the system is not a bad one, but I would rather not have it at all.

And because of the repair rune it’s not punishing at all. The system works but feels useless to me.

Making it more punishing also doesn’t make sense to me.

TL;DR So either remove it, or keep it like it is if you don’t want to, but making the system more punishing is a huge mistake.

My idea works as a way to discourage players from going to areas of too high level and dying non stop from enemies thinking that by doing so, and killing one enemy at a time will eventually be able to continue since enemies don’t respawn, and it doesn’t punish those who play normally.

But clearly does not have the same purpose from the point of view of Role in the game, in Lies of P it is like a sharpening that you want to keep high and you can sharpen during the combat so it is a combat mechanic, and it is even more evident from the fact that there is a status effect that damages the sharpening of the weapon and therefore you find yourself forced to sharpen the weapon mid combat.

While in NRFTW it’s like “if you want to keep the maximum effect of your enchantments don’t die”, which seems a bit redundant to me since you already don’t want to die, and punish the “Bad” players much more than the “good” ones but at this time it is not a real and proper curse xD, I don’t like these types of enchantments.

As I already told you, in my opinion it only makes sense to discourage people from going to places they are not yet ready for.

Which is a weak point of NRTFW since the enemies don’t respawn. A short-term punishment for a short-term mistake, to me it makes sense if it is contextualized well.

But it doesn’t have to be anything exaggerated, and as you say there are a lot of games that don’t have punishments of this type but work very well.

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By the way, you can’t really do that, if you don’t manage to kill the whole enemy pack they will respawn when you die, I am not sure if it always apply, but I noticed it happening especially for kill bounties, but for other packs of enemies as well. And you are right, they should enforce this feature more to discourage killing one enemy, respawn, and so on.

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Only for the kill bounties, not for the enemies you find on the path.

So for the main story you can also proceed by killing one enemy at a time every time you die.