D&D Feat Style System To Replace the Current Ichor Inventory Expansion System

Wicked Feedback
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42

I think you are reasoning a lot from a power gaming perspective that plays in the moment. Then I can see some merit in your arguments. But, in the end I think it just boils down to being careful with what to invest in. If you pick a feat at random without thinking it through, then I do think it is the players fault. Respec should be a thing though to be able to undo those mistakes. I can understand some people have an expectation of a feat and then it might not play out as intended.

The entire idea behind the feats is to further enhance someone’s roleplay experience. If I make a Knight with a Mace and Shield. I will pick feats that are related to Plate, 1h Maces and shields. Maybe I’ll add some fire damage onto it. These feats help you further customize and personalize your character with a roleplaying idea.

I don’t think it limits your choices, but rather it requires the player to think about their build/class and pick feats that further that build/class.

I can say the same about finding a legendary bow as a non Dexterity user or someone who plays as a knight :upside_down_face:

43

No you cant.
Because i can farm “endless” for a legendary Sword but not Feat Points.

The reality is that D&D is a Group Game with a intelligent Game Master as its core. Where your Abilities are bound to a D20 and not Realtime Actions.

D&D the Strength lies in the Character.
In Wicked the Strength lies in the Player.

Your idea is to build a class with feat points. But in the end its useless because you cant change the player which holds the power in a Souls game.

In your system the people will choose some generic feats which are always active and no dead end over some game changing feats like a fixed armor class. The player dont know how hard bosses are. In D&D its always in the D20 range but in Wicked with a player based evade?

In your system,i can say with certainity the Shitstorm for a Reset Feat NPC will be big. So you can change the feats, thats the same like Talisman system from Elden Ring.

And we have no Single player ARPG with NPCs which can be conviced. Air conducts for evade enemies or hacker consoles for the self destruct code of the boss. The CORE Gameplay is combat only.

44

But, I can.

So I partially agree with your initial statement. I wouldn’t say ALL the Strength lies in the character with D&D and ALL the Strength lies in the Player with Wicked. But, the majority of power. Even though I don’t think they are too far apart. A bad D&D player will not understand a good D&D character. And, a good player can get more out of a bad character in Wicked then in D&D.

I don’t agree with the conclusion, however. It’s up to the player to get a better understanding of the character and mechanics. Also as a CRPG veteran, I really feel like you are underselling the D20 range. D&D 5E is dumbed down an extreme amount, whereas Pathfinder 3.5E is amazing in complexity. But, bosses are not just a D20 range. It is knowing what there weak spots are and which abilities to prepare and use. You overestimate the preparation component of tactical combat grossly. It has a lot more depth to it in preparation. Yeah, the rolls are simplified, not everything leading up to the roll. Potions, buffs, debuffs, timings etc., It also has Realtime Actions, go play wotr/kingmaker on RTWP. You will be responding to what several enemies are doing with several characters. It is way more complex than any soulslike can ever hope to be.

So feats can work in real time as well. They are just an additive bonus like an affix is, but you seem fine with those. I already said people should be able to respec.

45

Here the Number of Elden Ring “Feats” aka Talisman Slots.
When you have Respecc its the same “commitment” aka i can change them.

Make the Ringslots in Wicked like the Talismans in Elden Ring and voila the system is ready.

47

Only problem is that the Focus use is a “Build” to. Means everyone must heavy use of Focus to spread your possibilites. Thats makes everybode somehow a “Wizard”.
Eldne Ring Talisman have rewards for everybody.

48

This is simply not true.
I made one character entirely reliant on focus and it is godlike.

I also have another character that does not even look at focus with his ass (and btw cannot even build up focus) and this character also wrecks anything in his way!

If you feel inferior, it might be that your build is shit.

49

Friendly reminder to NOT derail this topic.

You @anonymous87 are already arguing in at least 3 different topics about Focus/Runes:

This topic is about a system, similar to D&D feats replacing the current Ichor Inventory Expansion System.

So please have the common courtesy and decency to stay on topic and don’t let the ‘‘discussion’’ spill over in other people’s topics that are unrelated.

Thanks.

Edit: @bowuser I don’t respond to disingenuous people, stop trying to self insert yourself or make it about you. Especially when this post is not even about you, I’m ignoring you due to your past, present and most likely future disingenuous behavior; which you keep demonstrating. Seems like I live rent free in your head.

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I do not look at someone, but usually it is not me who continuously argues about deleting the focus implementation in various posts that have nothing to do with it :wink:

But maybe you are right, back to topic.

I dont think that DnD feats fit to this genre.
As already mentioned they

And also this whole topic has been discussed already (excessively) here:

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@Cibo

I gave those talismans a look over and I quite like some of them. I think the ones below would make for great additions to Wicked:

  • Axe Talisman: Enhances charged attacks.

  • Hammer Talisman: Enhances stamina-reducing attacks against blockers.

  • Twinblade Talisman: Enhances final hit of chain attacks.

  • Spear Talisman: Enhances counterattacks unique to trusting weapons.

  • Greatshield Talisman: Boosts guarding ability.

I like how these add to certain playstyles to create more depth. It was what I had in mind when I designed some of these feats. Either way, I hope the feats and those talismans get incorporated in the talent tree that they are making.

53

Both posts are mine… this one is 19 days old that one is 9 days old, and they are both about different topics. Fact checking and basic reading comprehension would tell you that.

I’ll give you the same treatment like your friend, since you seem to enjoy insulting others, instigate problems, lack the decency for a civil discussion and are just as disingenuous. I’ll ignore you too :blush:

Farewell.

Edit: No, you are always the one that starts insulting and never have any arguments; your hypocrisy is insane.

1 Like
54

My answer was for

BowUser:
I think the bonus stats from attributes that was proposed and access to more rune abilities is more reasonable form of character customization in the current game at least.

My answer:
Runes are chained to Focus means a more Focus centred build has more possibilities than a non Focus build. At the end you have a Focus heavy Build and 20 Runes or “Spells” like a Wizard or you are non Focus Fighter and “limited”.

57

So they both migrated to insultistan.

This is usually a sign that the arguments are out and the topick is dead.

58

I really love this idea; it brings in more customization and would lead to some really unique builds.

One thing, though, I wouldn’t integrate the apprenticeship system into this. As an example, I would make it so that after leveling a shop to level 3, the shop NPC gives you a quest/questline which you have to complete. Upon completion, you gain the ability to become an apprentice of said NPC.

Let’s take Filmore as an example: Filmore is grateful for you helping him rebuild his forge and asks you to help him forge his ultimate piece:

Collect Rare Materials:

  • Gather 5 Cursed Steel
  • Gather 3 Mystical Gems
  • Slay the Forge Golem to obtain a Fire Elemental Core

On Completion:
“Filmore thanks you for helping him forge his ultimate masterpiece and doesn’t know how to thank you.”

  • Gear bought from Filmore has X% more stats.
  • Upgrades have a 30% chance to give the gear X% more stats.

“Filmore has mastered the art of the forge”

  • Filmore can now copy every weapon you give him if you have the right materials.

“He asks you if you want to become his apprentice”

  • Unlock additional blacksmithing recipes.
  • When crafting at any blacksmithing station, you have an X% chance to have materials refunded.
  • The time it takes to turn ore into bars is reduced by X%.
  • Get an X% discount on any wares sold by Filmore.

And then you gain the perks you mentioned. In my opinion, this is way more fun than just giving the Scholar your Ichor and then magically becoming an apprentice of one of the NPCs. Happy to hear your opinion about this. :blush:

2 Likes
59

My favorite games are the Pathfinder games and Rogue Trader. So I do love it when games have a lot of customization. Tinkering builds is one of the most fun aspects of a game for me.

I really like your idea of a quest and that leading to more crafting benefits. It feels more natural and immersive rather than it existing as a perk that can be chosen.

I would add to your idea some side quests. Maybe we get a side quest every other level or at certain realm states. Collecting cursed steel can be the first side quest. Maybe there is a haunted mine somewhere with some ghosts in it.

The perks can than be unlocked progressively with the completion of each quest. And, the bulk of the perks come with the final quest, when you have helped him complete his ultimate masterpiece.

So yeah, I think your suggestion adds a lot more depth and I would love to see something like this added to the game. Great suggestion :+1:

1 Like
60

tl’dr : good idea, catastrophic examples

Most of the ideas in this post related to weapon types are so incredibly boring, it 90% boils down to “more stat up, more damage, more better etc”. Even more boring than the current affixes. “specialize in a weapon type to +% every generic stat up” is just pure trash, its pointless number bloat that adds nothing mechanically interesting to the game and does nothing but encourage you to have a small selection. It also doubles as dumb in a game that overly limits your variety with its 4 damage attributes system, that are basically just souls attributes except without the consistency and without the options to alter the scaling of weapons. First im limited to what uses this stat/these two stats, now you want me to limit myself to using these except with th

Or for example slashing/crushing/piercing damage, in a game where these currently dont organically matter. Trying to make them better by making you spec into arbitrary stat buffs does nothing but encourage lower variety and more number snowballing, its just trash game design all around. You can get the most popular/notable action games in terms of having a difference between damage types such as blunt/slashing/piercing and you will see that they either have much more organic incentives, often mechanically interactive (ex slashing cutting a tail) or more interesting/fitting forms of stat buffs (ex Leo ring)

A lot of these feels like directly getting in the way of potential variety with no real mechanical/gameplay gain, just more stats. Why force the player to choose some things that should just be able to be progressed at the same time, like blacksmithing, potions and carpentry? The game is already very padded, imagine having to choose whether to make potions stop being useless or gamble for the chance a blacksmithing blueprint has something you like? Food is already pretty free and one-dimensional, so why make me have to stop investing in other things to progress cooking?

The actually interesting things here are mechanically interesting combos and runes, sadly you wrote too many of them as “literally just deals damage/buffs damage lol”. But some of them are also just going too far/too random/too out of nowhere, which is also not what the game is meant to be about. I do think there should be more things and mechanical coolness, but random spike eruption AOE at the end of my combo? Randomly generating flying bolts around you and unleashing them once full?

Interesting builds in such games will always be primarily about actual mechanical difference, playstyle etc. Not snowballing a metric ton of different % stat boosts and attributes.

I do think the general idea behind the feats might be interesting, and its probably better than just inventory ups. but the actual examples here are the problem. For these suggestions, its probably way more helpful/easier to convince a dev by posting the idea and either none, or few, but surely fitting examples that match the other elements of the game & its intentions, instead of dilluting the main OP post with a lot of potentially very silly examples

61

You make some valid points but,

Talents in talents trees generally fall into three categories:

  • Active
  • Reactive
  • Passive

For the suggested talents I limited myself to Reactive & Passive talents. Because Runes are effectively the Active talents/abilities. And, a lot of games have passive talents that increase damage for specific weapon/damage types. You can call it tried and tested talents. Almost every RPG uses such talents in some form. Calling them boring is fair, but they do bring you closer to your final build. I would argue that unlocking them is the fun part as you get stronger and specialize your build.

I do think that the more fun talents are the ones that create unique playstyles. In D&D for example you have the Polearm Master & Sentinel combo. These are Reactive talents, they occur when X happens.

I also think that some talents that can modify runes would be really cool. However, runes are currently too strong. They just override the combat loop, so making them even stronger seems like a bad idea.

But, if crushing/slashing/piercing did matter, it would add more depth to combat – depending on how it is implemented.

As for number snowballing, I partially agree with you. I prefer the combat to be more close to the start of the game. Where I still have to make decisions during combat and react accordingly, rather than mash Rune 1.

Now, number snowballing is inherent to almost every RPG. Higher numbers is always going to be more fun for majority of the ARPG crowd to a certain extent. I would like to see higher numbers through passive talents whilst combat still remains challenging. Since Runes are the active abilities they passively get modified by our stats. Again, rune customization would be cool, but they would have to be nerfed.

You might not like the specific examples, which is fine – I do like them. That is why I suggested them. They change gameplay to some extent and allow people to specialize into specific directions with their build. Which should be the goal of talents. If I want to create a ‘Fire Knight’ I should have passive and reactive talents to invest into that help me create such a build. Such as the ‘Heat Seeking Missiles’. Then I choose the Runes that make most thematic sense.

You called my suggestions:

It is always easy to criticize other’s and find fault with their idea’s whilst it is much harder to put your own thoughts into a suggestion. So, I am curious what kind of examples you would come up with.

2 Likes
62

well thats the thing, i agree with you, but your examples wouldnt actually add depth, they would just make you have to stick to one of them for arbitrary damage bonuses that you specced into

i dont think passive talents inherently means bland % buffs that just make something stronger without actually making things more interesting

Then the ARPG crowd can go play another ARPG, thats not what the devs want and not what the players want.
Theres nothing wrong with bigger numbers, but too many things revolving around bigger number for the sake of bigger number is just poor. It wouldnt actually add to the gameplay, and the devs explicitly said around 999 times they dont want that. If your ideas around bigger numbers revolve around simultaneously making the mechanics more interactive, theres nothing wrong with that. but your post has a pile of “deal x% more damage with Y weapon or element” that does nothing but reduce variety (more on that later)

I do agree this game desperately needs more interesting things when it comes to progressions and powers, but bigger numbers arent one of them. And magically spawning missiles on hit are also not one of them

Ironically this is one of the cases where you get a good hint from souls, it feels like things are actually decently rational and come out of something that makes sense. I dont just gain procs, random fires that spawn from random attacks because they match a damage type, or whatever.

When making idea for these types of talents, i beg you to consider one thing

  • Does your idea actually evolve the playstyle and combat in any way, or does it just make you deal better numbers with a specific weapon?
  • Does your idea actually promote true variety and depth to playstyles, or does it make you want to spec into one thing and make other things fall behind?
    When it comes to your “weapon master” ideas for example, it gets the bad outcome on both of these questions. it would just be annoying bloat that causes more harm than good. on the other hand, your shield runes idea slot idea is way better

It depends.
If i were to write an example like i typically do? yeah, thats way harder than saying a suggestion is bad.

But if i were to make examples that are bland, poorly thought out, that dont actually evolve the game, and that are utterly disregarding of what the game’s identity is supposed to be & what the developers want, then coming up with examples would be actually quite easy.
I hope most forum posters that make posts with 9999 different examples takes a moment to reflect on this concept.

63

This is sooo untrue, there are various posts that you can read that disprove this. The game has a lot of ARPG fans and is even marketed by the developers as such.

It now also makes sense why you don’t like the suggestions. Since they type of suggestions are more common to RPG’s where you further specialize your build. I’m gonna assume you don’t like/play a lot of RPG’s.

Bigger numbers will be unavoidable to progress the power fantasy, but, I also would like more depth. I personally prefer how V Rising handles their active abilities over Wicked. I would like it to be more reactive and Soulslike in some regard - combat stays a dance between the enemy and you.

You are overlooking the fact that players want to specialize and not always want to pick stuff that adds active’s or adds more ‘depth’.

If someone wants to make a swordsman they will pick feats/talents related to that. I don’t understand this obsession with disliking flat or percentile buffs. They are staple RPG talents, not everything has to add depth or change a playstyle. Some need to do so sure, build some synergies between talents to create a new playstyle. But, at a certain point you are spreading yourself too much and need to specialize.

Most of the effective builds in RPG’s are almost always specialized builds.

I sincerely hope they don’t as it can kill their creativity and passion. If someone is excited about the game and wants to give example’s, let them. I think it is very rude to discourage people trying to help out.

Again, that is your opinion and I am still waiting on your suggestions…

1 Like
64

I can send you exact timestamps of developers saying they dont want number bloat and random things flying around, but rather a focus on grounded looking mechanics

People want to specialize into their playstyle, but that should involve cool mechanics and not the most boring things ever.

Youre right about one thing, i dont like most ARPGs. Wanna know why? Precisely because of the reasons that Moon pointed towards in their dozens of posts and interviews about how they want to be different. Thats why i have been following this game for so long. Thats literally their n-1 talking point! “Bro, ARPGs kinda suck right now, lets do something different”

The reason i dislike pure % buffs like you describe is because what you suggesting only narrows down playstyles and reduces experimentation. The path to the strongest gear shouldnt be snowballing all % buffs towards one thing. This is a game meant to be primarily about mechanical power and not excessive quantities of number go up

As for the “creativity and passion” part… I dont want you to stop thinking about cool ideas, and im not here to say you CANT do them. Im just giving my suggestions on how to make them good instead of bad. Im sure developers that read things like feedback forums and suggestions would be a lot happier if people posted things that try to align to their vision, or took a quality-over-quantity approach to their examples.

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In fact, i just noticed one thing i that i hadnt quite understood before. Once thomas directly said NRFTW is about “More substance and depth that doesnt just come from systems”, and initially i didnt get what he meant by systems, but after reading these posts, now i fully understand what he meant.

This idea of “adding depth” by making you spec into things for shallow bonuses, or something of the sort, in leveling/progression systems that dont actually transform the gameplay, is precisely the kind of fake, pseudo depth that he speaks against.