Feedback: Non-focus (non-ability damage) buffs

Based on my completed playthroughs thus far it feels like ability damage significantly out scales attack based damage in the current state of the game.

I don’t think gutting focus is the answer and believe after the last round of nerfs to focus gain that mechanic is in a relatively good spot (although maybe big nukes should be in a 150 focus cost range, different discussion/topic).

I have two suggestions for buffing Non-focus oriented builds and I’d like to hear other ideas as well.

  1. Add an infusion that buffs attacks in succession (would not apply to ability damage aka runes using focus). Possibly a ring instead

  2. Give all weapons access to a strong attack from standing. Currently some weapons have no heavy attack and others have it buried in a light attack string. In addition improve scaling of heavy attacks.

I believe point 2 and possibly 1 would work best as a ring since there would be competition from focus builds wanting to use focus gain/ability damage in the same equipment position. This way strictly focus builds wouldn’t also be able to double dip and also have access to “empowered” attacks.

Thoughts?

2 Likes

I say nerf the crap out of rune attacks, spamming those is OP as hell, i still see some builds on youtube killing the Echo Knight in 40s using nothing but focus attacks, people are not even learning the moveset of bosses, they die so fast its pointless, i say skills should have a cooldown, bigger the damage the larger the cooldown too, this would make un-enchanted staffs and weapons better for those who spam skills too, 4 runes intead of 2.

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I can’t get behind the CD, in my eyes the healer alternative is to evaluate rune ability cost to damage ratio. Damage is always going to scale with gear/stat investment so then the new cheese would just be spamming low % runes instead of nukes. I don’t think that’ll solve anything.

Another example would be shields. Take bow for instance. Can’t do anything to the shield boys [while the shield is up… obviously]1…now sure you can blink behind them and backstab and I quite enjoy doing so but bow has access to knockout blow which offers direct counter play and I don’t think the gameplay would be as smooth messing around waiting for a CD. My own perspective I enjoy fast pace throw as many obstacles as possible at me and I’ll use my tools as quickly as well.

Secondly introducing CC immunity timers to elites/bosses is a simple fix to pure spam and has worked in other games. I’m not a fan of what PoE did years back making stun a completely waisted stat so my vote is a CC immunity (after hard CC) for “D” amount of time.

People are going to break any systems you put in front of them so gatekeeping the “one true way” to play the game seems pretty irrelevant to me.

Edit:
See 1

Oh some out of context footage to check out? Cool.

If the shield is raised he will eat cone shot. Maybe after work I’ll bother to post clips of that too if you like.

You can time it in-between but I’m pretty impatient so I like the counter play of knockdown shot.

Care for me to reword my sentence or you good?

Edit: typo

Edit: adding to post, blow
I also mentioned blinking behind as a option and in case I have to say it out loud a backstab isn’t the only thing you can do from that position.

Always funny with these guys…

“YoU HaVe TO Do It eXacLy ThE wAY I PreFEr To Do ThInGs! YoU ARe Not ALloWeD To HaVE FUn!”

1 Like

And then the Cone Shot will deal massive posture damage through the shield and break his guard leaving him stunned at which point you press Cone Shot again which will kill him, and heal you, and restore your Focus, and restore your Stamina, because pressing your most overpowered Rune attack is the solution to every problem.

I don’t know why anybody would bother discussing this with you when you either have no idea how the game works or consistently misrepresent how the game works on purpose over and over again.

1 Like

and this is a problem… why exactlly??

If it were a 2 Hander, would you also complain that 2-3 hits in his back will kill this guy?

Oh look your cheerleader is here.

We just speed ran from “This doesn’t happen” to “This happens but it’s a good thing” in one post. I’m going give you two some peace to have fun by yourselves.

Run out of arguments so you need to personally attack me?

I take that as a compliment :kissing_heart:

I’ve beaten the EK and crucible without using cone shot and I don’t have anything to prove to you random Internet stranger… You can claim I don’t know how the game works but I lve cleared all the content. So go ahead and say more meaningless trash, it is what it is. I can’t stop you so I won’t try.

If you wanna spam cone shot, I could give a fuck less. It’s not how I play the game and I don’t think it’s efficient in all scenarios. There are several other skills that can be chained with similar effect.

A single knockout shot will clear the shield, you had to spam it 2-3 times (since he already had poise damage from the attack you landed while he was not in the guarding position)? Neat…

If you wanna spam cone, again be my guest. Feels slow a not smooth to me.

And since you like to ignore what I’ve said, I’ll remind you I e advocated for nukes to have a larger focus requirement and said that cone could be coded differently (less arrows). The real difference between cone and other strong abilities like you would find on falling sky is that every arrow gains from on hit attacks. Aka knockdown shot and cone are both 100 but you full refresh on cone because of the multi hit.

So that’s one of us providing real feedback. So why are you here?

He is obviously here to whine about his awful character build. And in consequence everyone else is at fault.

I clarified something you took out of context.

No one has gone from this doesn’t happen to it happens sometimes.

Keep up the clown work tho, you’re doing great :+1:

I’d prefer it if runes are brought down a bit, toward the level of normal combat

  • Removing Focus gain on Damage dealt or replacing it with a healthier alternative (for example Focus regen after Damage dealt).
  • Make Focus Moves cost Stamina - If all offensive Moves cost Stamina, the Stamina “economy” is not taken out of the Game. You can balance the Stamina vs Focus costs based on how “magical” the Moves are.
    // This would also lead to all types of play styles interacting more with the Stamina based mechanics (Dodge, Sprint, …), which in turn would lead to a more curatable experience

I get the “don’t nerf” mentality and i tend to agree. But right now, its a nobrainer to play Focus only builds with or without one multihit nuke. Everything else feels weak in comparison - by a large margin.

If you are worried about player power - I think this would enable player power, because more attention will be on other things in general, that are overshadowed right now. Also crafting updates and skilltrees are on the horizon, they could contain more power this way.

Finally, a constructive suggestion.
Thank you, and people… take notes.

2 Likes

Yeah definitely room for the opposite where rune damage is reduced to fall more in but it gets tricky with elemental damage based on what we have in front of us currently.

I’ll lean on the arrow abilities since it’s what I’m most familiar with. Regular arrow (consuming stam) seems to incredibly similar scaling to the other elemental arrows. (Based on hitting the cloth armor trash in crucible). The heavily armor enemies take roughly 50% damage from regular arrow and takes only slightly reduced damage from the elemental arrows. Armor and res are all blocking different damage types so that makes sense.

I’ve also thought a nice half way point would be buffing enemy elemental res, which would be some what in line with your idea, no?

Also some of this post was inspired by lightning arrow of all things. The elemental abilities seem to have a critical mass point of damage (unsure if % based or flat number) where they have an additional effect in some cases. Freezing is one of those, and lightning arrow seems, idk almost crit? That or some form of loaded additional damage. Without charging I’ll hit 120s buffed and after 1-2 on the giant the next hit will be 140s. Same with smaller mobs, first hit is 120s second is 140s (that’s why I’m leaning %hp). Take off rune ring and don’t buff and I’ll just sit there trying to get to that breakpoint (but the mob would die before that point from weaker attacks)

TLDR
I think buffing enemy elemental res fixes some of closing th gap. Other specific runes would need their own individual adjustments. Either way I’m all for more balancing th scales. I just don’t think it has to come at the cost of the resources we have available with focus if we’re just talking damage numbers

Thank you for the thoughtful reply :pray:

Interesting approach… Let me think on that :thinking::

Actually i wouldn‘t care about damage as much at this point. Economy and the foundation is more important right now - Damage can always be finetuned later. I think suggestions are fine, but not bold enough :upside_down_face:

From my pov Focus abilities are supposed to be special - right? I want the game to have a high ceiling, but it‘ll have to cost you.

It does not seem from my pov, that elemental resistances are an issue -
If what you describe is accurate (i haven’t tested it myself), that sounds pretty balanced.

Elemental Attacks are supposed to be stronger vs armor and only fall off vs enemies, that are naturally resistant to those elements (e.g. fire vs fire elementals). But physical Status effects would be nice for physical attacks (maim/bleed/…)

Its also arguably wise to not let elemental attacks fall off too much, to prevent people from strongly favoring physical builds, because everything else may “brick” against certain enemy types - Which is unfun.
If that would happen we‘d need elemental penetration/reduction or similar enablers again… Imo its more fun to skip that part and make all elements viable - more or less under different circumstances, but always viable.

What do you think?

Btw love the idea of rewarding combos

In general its nice if damage increases or later Hits in the Combo get special effects.

This is also nice for balancing fast vs slower hitting weapons, when slower weapons can reach their finishing moves faster (less actions required), and/or those special effects are stronger.

Would make that baseline btw - no ring required. Just opportunity cost. If you are busy doing your attack combo, you can‘t spam efficient Runes.

1 Like

Ahhhh finally home and not on my phone replying with 10+ typos a post.

Ok. So what foundation are we speaking to? I’d love to hear something from the developers camp directly (and if I’ve missed something ofc please link). But the one thing I have seen from them -and this is paraphrasing here… was they believe they have a lot to bring to the ARPG scene.

Which lets face it, pretty stale. Personal bias here, I’ve loved the footage out of PoE2 and the idea of more mechanical gameplay. I haven’t touched it in years because the all roads lead to spamming one ability and running in circles. Really broad strokes but the point I’m getting at is NRFTW introducing souls elements into an ARPG feels right up my alley in terms of wants and I really enjoy what they’ve brought to the table with map design, aesthetics, and a concept.

That said, I don’t think the concept is all that defined, which is the real issue at hand. Which leads me to your point below.

What gives you this impression? There are rune: buffs, general utility, healing, mobility, evasion, damage… and combinations of those in different rune abilities.

And me -I play my first playthrough of any game blind as a bat and only explore the internets hot take after I’ve completed the available content. I do like other perspectives but ya have to start somewhere and form and opinion first right? Anyways -so me seeing all of these offerings in runes I think -Ok so these are enhancements and a core part of the game. And then I think -Ok but this game takes a lot of influence from souls so can I not use runes and still perform on a similar level? In my experience so far the answer is no -rune abilities far outpace weapon attacks.

So -cross roads. Are attacks to be used in conjunction with runes (hybrid playstyle I myself enjoy) -we can obviously go full rune, staff can even come with an elemental damaged already baked in to further enhance the rune abilities you use with it. So that leave just attacking, seemingly on an island because of how underwhelming it is…

Long drawn out boss fights feel like sitting in traffic, especially with a move set as basic as EK. Outside of learning the move set of a souls boss blind, once you know them they’re as simple as basic mobs to an extent and souls games scale bosses with your level so even at level 1 you still do meaningful damage to bosses. Hence all the novelty runs.

EK has a big… massive HP pool compared to everything else in the game. I’ve fought him with light/heavy attacks and my overwhelming feeling is this feels so much worse (less polish) than the rest of the game.

That’s where my feedback for buffs to attacks started. That and seeing things like the ring that takes away focus for HP… I thought ok so there’s room for no focus in the game but the equipment and enhancements that runes have aren’t in the current build.

Also while we have a lot of the same mechanics we’re missing the melee focus that souls games have and I’m not sure if they’re able to be replicated in the isometric format apples for apples. Which is ok because this is something different but… Take 2H GS for instance. There was a lot you could do with not targeting a specific mob and free casting. In this game free casting feels not great. We can position our characters placement in the world but not where they’re looking. We can only use the other stick to snap target to another mob. So already that’s a HUGE change for auto attacking combat mechanics. We also don’t have access to crouch cancel (additional attack types outside of heavy/light). What I’m getting at is without the nuances light/heavy just feel dull, imo.

Rounding off this rambling on the thought was, enabling better attacks opens up build paths for players who don’t want to focus on abilities. Personally I think the game plays both using both but I thank this game wasn’t made for me, or anyone else so why not bring as many build possibilities to the table.

I mention tying these enhancements to equipment so that ability builds don’t double dip. In my the same way the run ring only buffs rune attacks.

Where we differ on this is related to the first novel because I get what you’re saying, you think abilities are meant to be big. I just don’t see it that way based on what they’ve offered us to use. So to each their own but if you’ve made it this far, we can at least see where each person is coming from.

I get this, and I’m all for keeping it simple. The thought was that if we’re going to level the playing field -we’re going to actually level it and make the build choices in equipment & attributes do the heavy lifting. But again this is all coming from a POV of let anything be a build if you invest in it. People love options.

But is that the intent of the combat design? That’s the question no one can agree on.

TLDR:
I think abilities in general are in a good state at the moment because if feels impactful. Stronger abilities have high focus requirements but some of these abilities double dip on hit effects so the cost becomes irrelevant which leads to spamming. I don’t buy the cooldown argument and think it’s healthier to look at revising how this skills are coded (If you wanna test this just compare cone shot to knockout shot).

Then you come to the crossroads of -do we just enhance basic attacks to make them feel better or do you divide strong attack builds and strong ability builds by gear. There could be other cool options but you get the idea.

Lastly, the comment on penetration etc- luckily the game scales off your scaling attribute so honestly you can do just as much with fire/cold/lightning/plague. You’d lose their utility sure but I don’t think it would be as crippling as… shit this guy is res to cold and I do all cold damage. We have access to weapon swaps and you can just have a different element on an identical piece of gear. And they have already introduced weapons with multiple elements so I don’t think this game aims to be as focused as a traditional ARPG. But I’m down with it, feels good do have so much skill variety to change from. Ofc making an identical weapon can be challenging early but I think that would have to be a later game feature if at all. I’m not advocating for adding more elemental res without tweaking other stuff but just pointing out the big gap in their effectiveness. But then we circle back to the earlier points about what is the games target combat.

1 Like

When the hell did i say that? I said builds are so broken you kill the boss in 40s, no one who is killing the 2 phase boss in 40s is learning his moveset, am i wrong? If they nerf the crap out of focus use and rune attack you get back at me, i find that fight awesome btw.

You never said that, he misconstrued what you said in a mocking way.

That individual just wants to be disingenuous since he gets a kick out of it. He is doing it to multiple people across 4 or more topics.

Best to simply ignore him.