why not go to a realm where u have it?
In NRFTW story is just an excuse to engage the mechanics, where most important one is combat. It is not a Witcher game, where besides story there is nothing interesting at all. In Wicked story is just nice addition that very well could’ve not exist for what i care.
Maybe playing hardest difficulty would change your outlook then? Why exactly early game is inferior? I don’t see big difference, besides your character being a much stronger later. I played with 3 characters already and im about to finish 4th. Each time i finish campaign i play for like 2-4 hours till i exalt all gear and after that i just play for 1 more hour at best and move on, because mashing enemies without effort and purpose is not fun at all. I don’t get what is so superior about it.
This is such a laughable argument that i hear a lot in recent years. I heard it the most during launch of Path of Exile 2.
“Change the game, because i have 7 jobs, 3 wives and 11 children. I don’t have the time to play games.”
While in online games with seasonal wipeouts this argument have like 1% validity, in single player games it is such a bad take.
Again, you talk like it is some kind of punishment, a chore to play the game. What is this attitude? “WASTE OF TIME! EVERYTHING IS A WASTE OF TIME! EXCEPT THIS PART WHERE I EFFORTLESSLY MUNCH ENEMIES WITH OVERPOWERED MINMAXED CHARACTER WITHOUT PURPOSE” 
Test a weapon? You can do this without respecing, just equip the weapon and check if you like its animation patterns.
This is actually a very valid argument that i understand, when you want to play a very specific weapon, not just a general weapon category like spears. It might feel bad when you either cannot find it till you’re almost finished campaign or you have the weapon on other character, but cannot use it due to high stat requirements. But respec is not the solution. I don’t even know if it should be addressed, because maybe it is intentional design decision that weapons with superior animation patterns drop later in the game.
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Reading this topic, I though about the inspirations behind No Rest for the Wicked.
One of which was Zelda.
So it makes me imagine how silly it would’ve been in Breath of the Wild, if each weapon you picked up was gated behind the current stat system.
Each weapon row, limited by Str, Faith, Dex or a combination between.
Granted each of these games are different in their own way. but as is..
- Leveling STR does not affect your carry weight or make all physical weapons hit harder.
- Leveling DEX does not affect your attack/move speed or ability to use ranged weapons (bows).
- Heals are unaffected by Faith and INT does not increase spell damage.
So at the end of the day, there’s no reason why you shouldn’t be able to use a weapon of any type without having to spec into it specifically.
Other than of course, to give the false sense of player choice and add artificial difficulty.
Something Thomas has admitted to btw.
*This is one of the reasons they’re revamping the stat system into “classes/jobs”.
Just some food for thought ~
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I totally agree with this statement,
I’ve complained in the past that Str, Dex, Int, Fai, are basically the same generic Damage stat split to create different groups of weapons that can or cannot be used together, This doesn’t serve the game in any way other than limiting the variety of builds unlike a game like EldeRing where the system makes sense for balance reasons and also because normal weapons can be infused to scale with the attributes you use.
And i was told that a change is planned and that i have to wait, the problem is that the change in question is quite complex and we don’t know when it will be ready, probably the next update is the multiplayer update and the one after that will be the new system but until then we are stuck with a system that has no reason to exist and that just damages the game and it could be solved in a very short time less time than a simple bug fix, just remove Str, Dex, Int, Do and put “Damage”, literally something that could be done by a single person in 1-4 days, but it would improve the game experience significantly.
Two simple examples of how these limitations block interesting builds from existing
Wand + Bow
I used this combo at the beginning of the game for a while and it is very interesting and is not op compared to a normal build but it cannot be used effectively because of the system
Slot 1: Claymore, Slot 2: Staff
There is a greatsword that scales with Int but has a different moveset than the Claymore (it does not have charged attacks) and I like it much less
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I refer to quotes, to which I wrote those line as a response.
Congratulation, you are the first on my block list.
Indeed, even if they don’t want to remove them.. simply locking the other “powers” (with a greyed out “coming soon”) leaving only Str, would go a long way.
Then just flip all equipment to temporally use Str.
Depending on the complexity of the system, it could take a few hours or a few days.. unless the game suffers from spaghetti code. In which case it could take months.
If built in Unity 3D using Scriptable Objects as it’s framework, you could have this done in a few hours.
*Overview reference for beginners (those curious about game design):
Aww, thanks 
“Mr. Organiser, i would like to sign up for marathon, but 42 kilometers is too much. Not everyone has time to train for it and then run for 4 hours straight, you know. So i ask to shorten the distance to 500 meters.”
^ This does not sound ridiculous, not at all.
Technically it all depends on how you look at it. For example in diablo games you have “in your face” archetypes (classes), and each has different toolset to use (skills in skill trees). In NRFTW the archetypes are hidden behind attribute system and are more fluid (you can freely distribute points). There are 10 archetypes in total: Strength, Dexterity, Intelligence, Faith and their combinations, and each has different toolset to use (weapons).
Im not against this idea tho, to allow using every weapon, it would certainly introduce more variable gameplay during each playthrough. But then there should be some other progression system implemented in place of attributes that would have permanent choices and allow for making mistakes.
Agree’d.
*Personally I’m not a fan of the current stat system or upcoming class teasers.
Being restrictive for the purpose of replayability (creating alternate characters for each build).
Perhaps a more streamlined approach akin to newer Zelda titles, while also incorporating RPG (level up/skill tree) mechanics similar to FFXIV?
IE: You can equip any weapon, but there’s an “experience” or stories behind them.
Regardless how they do it, I think the devs also have a major problem in the lore department.
Your character is supposed to be “old” or at the very least, other than most other people in the story.
You should have skills and powers already unlocked at the start of your journey.
I’m curious, how would you approach this topic, knowing what we know, yet aiming to make an engaging skill/stat system?
When someone fails to provide logical reasons to justify their opinion, it is safe to deduce it is their ego talking.
In fact, I have to actually data mine what logical point it is that you are trying to get across.
Your entire argument is this: Free respec negatively affects the players ability to learn essential game mechanics. See? One sentence. Correct me if I’m wrong.
But you don’t actually provide any evidence beyond projection to prove this.
Sure, but what would be the motivation then to replay the game if such limitations were lifted? After all it is a industry standard, don’t think that anybody thought out a better way yet.
I didn’t played new Zelda games yet, nor Final Fantasy that devs were inspired with to create new job system.
To be honest im not sure if creating deep progression system with choices that matter, yet allowing freely swapping weapons to different categories is even possible. Let’s say developers implement this job system, i presume it is similar to skill trees from skyrim, where you level particular tree by fighting with that weapon type. If this system is to be impactful the perks in it have to be relevant and strong, but this will make switching weapons to not leveled categories huge downgrade. I can already feel all those forum topics lamenting about it
Maybe the solution for this would be to restrict perks to only be utilities, never actual power upgrades. But would players feel excited about unlocking new perks then if it’s minor utility?
But she’s right tho, it’s basic human psychology. If you give a person easy and effortless way out of consequences for their mistake, they won’t learn as quickly and eagerly as they would if they got punished.
Free respec would trivialize attribute allocation choice, because why would i spend time thinking about it when i can change my decision any time i want. Why would i read what attributes do if i can jump straight into combat and progressing.
Additional thing is that difficulty would need to be rebalanced around having a perfect stat allocation.
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The closest thing I’ve found was with FFXIV.
- One character has access to every class/job and crafting/gathering professions.
- Each job/profession levels up as you use them, has their own weapon tiers and has unique stories tied to your progression.
Further, gathering and crafting are actual mini-games that allow you to use skill to get better results.
However, do these systems fit No Rest for the Wicked?
..maybe?
The real issue with NRftW lies in the fact the devs want a game you can replay again and again, visit other peoples worlds to explore/help, ect.
Essentially a combination of Zelda, Elden Ring, Diablo/PoE, Stardew Valley and possibly Skyrim.
Most people will play the game and put it down after beating it.. but Thomas’ goal is to continue working on this game for the next 10 years.
A tricky goal for a game that isn’t a smash success.
Look at all the Pokemon clones have failed over the years, yet Palworld exploded on the scene making the studio hundreds of millions of dollars.
There were even clones that had “guns” launch well before hand.. yet didn’t have even remotely the same success.
It’s lightning in a bottle, something NRftW will have to figure out if it’s to last 10+ years.
Right now, I don’t see the job system catering to that goal.. nor the many of the other systems.
For us players, there’s not a lot of “behind the scenes” or transparency to hype us up or help us guide the devs prior to each major patch.
Essentially, all we can do at the moment is complain the current systems don’t work.. because we don’t have access to a beta server/testing grounds, featuring more up to date systems.
IE: Is this entire topic pointless, because the devs have already moved the respec feature to the watchers tower or another more accessible location?
No one here knows.. thus we might be spinning our wheels on something the devs have already addressed.
It’s one of the reasons I haven’t bothered to play the recent update.
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If her argument is that free respec would trivialize attribute system, then my question to her is why doesn’t she apply the same logic to ledge protection as she adamantly defended that change.
Do we really want to talk about human psychology here? OK, I have a bit of background in this field so let’s unwrap your claim.
First let’s establish that your approach and understanding of the matter is purely punitive. Yes, punishment can drive learning, but it’s neither the only way nor the most effective in many cases. There are better, more psychologically sound methods, i.e. Scaffolded support and autonomy, to foster deep, lasting learning.
Consequences (like punishment) can create negative reinforcement. The game offers no support in properly teaching the player what the attribute system is and how it should be used. And yet, it can heavily punish you for wrong allocation. It’s mind boggling that the devs know majority of players fumble their attribute distribution and they have made zero effort to guide the new players in the right direction. Instead they have promised to get rid of it.
Just because we know this system from our prior experience, we cannot look at those who don’t as if they’re sheep and we’re scientists. This is an entertainment scenario for heaven’s sake, it’s not that deep. Trust me, if they gave everyone free respec, it would take away nothing from your experience.
Because in order to do better, you need to learn it. And without learning it, you couldn’t effectively enter the combat system. You assume people have no agency? They don’t want to get better? You have to push them towards betterment by punitive action?
Why? Don’t you already know perfect stat allocation? I assume you do, so should we now change the difficulty because some players have mastered this?
In fact, if they give everyone free respec, then the playing field is even for everyone. If everyone can have perfect stat allocation, then there is not need to change any balancing since all will have the same tools available to them. If everyone is OP then no one is OP.
And I don’t understand why we keep talking about “free” respec. I never advocated for free respec. All I’m saying that the current way it’s locked behind the Crucible is an absolutely dumb way of doing it and defending it has no logical backing. But your general stance is, anything that could mildly be attributed to more accessibly is generally bad for the game.
I have never advocated for making things easy, but this one issue, not teaching the attribute system and locking respecing behind an end game activity is down right 80 IQ dev decision and I can’t defend it. Setting new players up for failure is not the way.
Just look at her tone in the response she gives to the OP’s genuine experience as a new player: “I’ve said it before, in countless other threads, no you should not be allowed to respec from the start” AND she’s offended when someone calls out the oozing ego out of that.
He clearly expresses the fact he feels like he’s being punished for early mistakes that game set him up for by not teaching him the system. That is worth understanding, not patronizing.
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well, the psychology of risk reward, and the fact that humans always go the way of least resistance weren’t reasons enough, so i tried simple math, since math is the universal language.
besides that, opinions and facts are by definition not the same thing. and having an opinion does not need any proof either. or do i now have to provide proof that i do not like pickles?
it is again what it often is, pure confrontational provocation. you did not even reply to my completely logical “fact and reasoning” i provided, but again just assumed things about my personality which have absolutely no relevance in any discussion.
so when you ask for proof, and facts, please stay true to your own demands and stop this personal confrontation that has neither merit nor constructive value.
edit: and yes, you are wrong, my argument is not “Free respec negatively affects the players ability to learn essential game mechanics.” my entire argument is “respec should not be available from lvl 1, but rather mid to endgame” which it actually is now. and i also said multiple times that i do not care if it is in crucible, costs 10 ichor or needs a potion from markos. my additional point is also: if you learn all game mechanics and upgrade your gear, respec is already easily accessible.
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I have some questions about this. There is no disrespect or condescension with my tone. I just want to understand the reasoning behind these arguments.
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How will making attributes respec more easily accessible break the game?
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Why are we punishing players who made a mistake? Should they just restart all over again? How is that experience beneficial?
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What is the goal of being punitive behind being able to respec? Is the goal of this game to teach life lessons or to make the game enjoyable?
Try to imagine this. Say a casual player buys the game and tries it. He starts with a strength based weapon. He puts some points in strength. As he’s playing through, he picks up a shield that has some really nice enchants but requires 13 int. He puts some point on intelligence. He then sees a bow, thinks it’s super cool but requires 16 dex. He puts some points in dex. He comes across a plate armor but becomes encumbered. He puts some points in equip load. But then a leather armor with the enchants he really wants comes along and he equips that. He’s progressing through the story and he goes against the riven twins. He can’t beat it. After some research, he found that he’s been going through the game all wrong and wants to correct his mistake without losing the hours of investment he already made. Why do we need to make it hard for someone who wants to correct their mistake and play the game right way? How will that improve player retention? Will that experience make the person recommend the game to someone else?
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there are still players who think respec is the only way to improve a build. in another thread about the exact same thing there were multiple people who said they need to respec to reach respec in the crucible. which is factually wrong. you can upgrade gear, enchant, use gems etc. some of them were even running around with white unenchanted gear. no wonder they did not reach lvl 5 of the crucible.
when you can respec without investing in earning this feature, some players will just never really interact with all mechanics, but just respec every time they encounter something new.
plus, as said above, respec is only relevant after at least 10-20 skillpoints have been invested. so why is it even needed at lvl1?
it is not punishment, it gives players another “quest” to overcome and a reward when they are successful. and while they think about how to overcome that challenge, they might even interact with mechanics they haven’t tried before and learn something.
so to answer also your 3rd question: it is not about teaching life lessons, its risk reward, as everything else in games. overcoming a challenge and getting something from it is rewarding. to gain exp u need to risk losing in combat, to upgrade gear u need to farm resources etc. so i ask a counter question: why should respec be the only thing that does not require investment and efford? why should a undo button just magically spawn in sacrament?
plus we haven’t talked about the lore. why should a cerim just switch from a super strong worrior to the best mage there ever was to the most nimble rogue by the press of a button? how does that fit the whole theme of the game? everything is dark and brutal. and you are constantly forced to make the best of a bad situation. how does effortless respec fit this narrative?
Wouldn’t that be another sort of punitive measure? If they’re already wearing gear they don’t want in the first place, they’ll have to grind out the ingredients to upgrade the unwanted gear, then unlock respec in the crucible which in and of itself is not some small effort and time investment. And when they finally respec to the stats they want, they would have to grind out the ingredients again to get the gear they want leveled. How is that meaningful experience?
How is making respec more accessible not interacting with all the games’ mechanics? What mechanics are they missing out on? Combat will not be made easier by respec. It doesn’t make the player more skilled. Respec either corrects the mistake that a player made in their attributes distribution or it enables them to play the style that they really want. Why is making that accessible a bad thing?
Is this where we want players to spend their time on? Especially players who made mistakes with their allocation? Also, inversely, what if they learned of a mechanic but they can’t interact with it because their allocation is wrong? Isn’t the point of being able to respec is to enable the players to interact with other mechanics they haven’t tried? The reasoning that they need to make what they’re currently equiped with work so that they might learning something is a fallacy. It’s like saying you need to make a change without making a change. What they’re on is not working for them and they need to respec to get to the play style they really want to be on.
Why should all the systems in the game be homogenous? From all the feedback we are getting not only on this thread but on other platforms as well, the current respect system is not at all rewarding. Combat is rewarding. Exploration is rewarding. Those should be the primary focus of this game isn’t it not? To answer your question, by making respec difficult to attain, we are taking time away from where players should really focus. Gaming is a curated experience. An escape from our daily cumbersome lives. The players focus should be directed where the reward is worth the effort. Respec, is not that.
Why is there a need to have a narrative about being able to respec? how is the lore changed if players respec? Respec doesn’t make the game easier. It doesn’t make the player skilled. Making respec accessible enables the players to focus on the lore, the narrative, the meat of the game. Having players put in substantial time and effort in a subsystem takes them away from that.
Here you have explained well what are the problems that the current system poses,
Considering the crucible RNG elements, it is possible to reach floor 5 even with a horrible build, but if players don’t know that there is something they want on floor 5, they won’t be motivated enough to make the number of attempts necessary to get there.
This is not true, having a few more points in health instead of a stat you don’t use can make the difference between a very frustrating experience and a fun one.
I don’t think it’s necessary at level 1 but already at level 9 the player has 24 points to distribute, and if he has lost 9 by putting them in useless places it’s as if he were level 6, but given that it takes more and more time to level up, the more the game goes on the more those 9 points weigh on the build and the strength of the character
This is only true if it is implemented well, but in this case it is not the case, because there is a communication problem between the player and the game that the devs have not considered:
The biggest problem is that the player can’t know that the respeck is unlocked in the crucible until he reaches lv 5 of the crucible, and if he finds the crucible uninteresting he might decide to explore it later, thus being deprived of the respeck option without knowing it.
The lore is important but this is fantasy, and everything can be justified in one way or another, all it needs is creativity and a convincing explanation.
My solution is this:
The statue is already present, but it is in bad conditions after the player uses it once the statue gets even more damaged and Elsa makes a comment like: “this statue is really in very poor condition, and unfortunately I don’t have the skills necessary to repair it, I think you will only be able to use it one more time”. the scond time you use it crumbles and we hear the voice of the Seneschal who makes the player understand that to repair it he must venture into the crucible.
What do you think about this solution?
- I like it
- I don’t like it
- I’m not sure
0
voters
It was talked over a lot in this topic already, for me it’s all about having important permanent choices in the game that will influence the way game is played. The attribute system is literally only system in the game that has semi permanent choices, maybe excluding ichor upgrades. In a perfect scenario for me respec should not exist at all.
A lot of early mistakes can be played around. Changing the system to accommodate dumbest of players is not a good idea.
The only valid concern some players have is the fact that this system locks you to certain weapons. I understand it, but giving free respec is not a solution.
Why not? Why is punishing player for mistakes a bad thing? Do you feel the same about dying to a fall from high? What about enemies with a combo attacks that can straight up kill a player that have problems dodging / parrying properly?
Enjoyment can drastically vary based on the person. Casual players will be happy with simple, frictionless entertainment and choices that could never be wrong. More demanding players on the other hand want exact opposite, a difficult game, choices that matter and can punish you for making a wrong one, more complex mechanics, ect.
Let’s talk about this exact scenario. The said player is fighting Riven Twins, so he is around level 14, which means he has 39 points to allocate. He allocated “wasted” points early on into int (3 points), dex (6 points) and equip load. So his stats might look similar to this:
Health 20
Stamina 15
Strength 17
Dexterity 16
Intelligence 13
Faith 10
Focus 10
Equip load 18
This is not a tragic outcome requiring a new character, those 17 points are not as big of a deal and would not help that much. Of course you can also play in several ways around this. Let’s start with clarifying that equip load is not a wasted stat, if he specced into it he can simply change armor to heavier version to utilize points he spent. Then he can change weapon to Str Dex hybrid, so points he spent into dex won’t be a waste. This way the only points he truly wasted are 3 int.
So the lesson is, use your head while playing, to think how to overcome problems and play around consequences.
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well, nice thought, and we already talked about something similar in the countless other threads about respec: making it a danos project or a Markos potion.
does not matter after all, since the stat system is going to change, or will be gone at some point anyways. thats another point. i’d rather the team invests its resources in coop and combat update and bugfixes, as putting any effort in a respec system that will be obsolete anyways.
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