Not at all, just because current situation is dumb does not mean i want it to be even dumber. If it was up to me i would have remove this system from the game entirely or did some more limited way to respec small portion of points. For example for defeating each boss in the campaign you get item that can respec 2 levels worth of attribute points, so after defeating all 6 bosses you wold be able to respec 12 levels of points. This game is not complicated enough to warrant full unlimited respecs.
But this is already the norm, even if you speck fully into Int you can still wear heavy armor or use greatswords, scimitars and staffs, just not all of them. This has nothing to do with cosequences of ones actions. Str, Dex, Int & Faith stats do not have any meaning besides dictating which sword an Int character can use effectively.
This is not about being rewarded. I use the very limited free time I have to enjoy myself. If the game asks me to go through several hours to raise a new character, do the lvling process again, just to test another sword, then I consider this as a waste of my time.
There are no questlines to warrant a new playthrogh. NRFTW is at its best when you face tougher enemies in pestilence zones. I do not need another lvl 1 character experience, because it is inferior to what the game can offer elswhere.
The stat system is shallow and there are no questline to warrant a new playthrough.
Exactly, why would I want to replay a shallow experience to get to the good stuff, when I am already there.
Players usually do not posses crystall balls that show them the future, just like they do not have the access to the full list of weapons with their detailed information. The accusation that players are too dumb to read tooltips misses the point that the Iceberg greatsword has a different move set than the Claymore greatsword and no player, who spends the points from early lvl ups can possibly know what gear they might enjoy.
Exactly, I am currious about all the different playstyles and weapons I already collected; not another campaign you ask me to do.
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Respec is not a reward system it; is a customisation system. There are games that make it their whole selling point like Guild Wars or Warframe. Divinity Original Sin has an infinite & free respec mechanic, but requires an unlock that is relatively early on.
Ok, but you’re max level not 15. Even if, crucible is scaling to your character level and you don’t have to complete all floors, you can easily farm in first 3 and then use echo to teleport to 5th. So what is the problem?
The biggest change in design from 2000’s to 2025 is heavy casualisation, which made a lot of AAA games a soulless crap. Older titles a lot of the times have much better design.
No idea what moral judgment has in common with logical observation that choices without consequences lack a meaning.
Ever played a chess or a card game with a “reverse my decision” option? How excited you were each time you were making a move? How did the win felt afterwards?
What is special about joining dark brotherhood guild in skyrim, if minutes later you can join companions, thieves guild, college of winterhold and bards college. become the head of every single one of them and all that in just one playthrough. I do not even mention that there is zero consequences for joining any of those guilds… Boring.
Yeah, yeah… better experience for new players 
What is so elitists and hardcore about having a consequences of your decisions? 
We are simple humans too, we do not spawn with all the knowledge of game mechanics before even launching the game. We read our tooltips tho, so i guess that’s one of our superpowers.
Intentions to replay a game by individual players or whether the game is good or bad has nothing to do with replayability potential of a game. Replayability is simply a metric to determine if there are enough possible experience variations between replays. That’s it. I wrote about it only because the guy i responded to wrote that starting a game again from beginning is unimportant “padding”, which is kinda bizarre take.
Again, it all boils down to choices player makes within the game and lack of consequences. There is literally no meaningful character progression if you can jump between character archetypes. Imagine you play Diablo 2 with a druid, but after 2 hours you get bored (small digression, if someone has this problem i highly advise dopamine detox) or hit some friction and want to go with barbarian instead. If you would be able to transition with a click of a button then class selection would be completely pointless choice and it could very well not exist.
No, but it will move the needle closer to the shallow direction. Combine this with brilliant ideas of other 20 casuals and we have completely different game from the original vision, because they want it easy and accessible, designed around their 1 hour per week schedule. The game cannot have consequences of decisions, because god forbid they might make a wrong one and it would be the end of the world.
You’re already almost finished with the game and maybe you will return for few more hours when co-op releases and that’s it. Every single player that actually wants to keep replaying this game will have to play with altered mechanics tailored to casuals that moved on long ago after playing for 30-50 hours. Great.
Im not sure, but i think rerolling enchantments on an item was added in breach update, because some people were complaining. I don’t think it was in the original release.
Those systems are already implemented, there is no way developers would revert them.
I admit i exaggerated a bit. But were my assumptions wrong tho? Did you read what attributes do? Did you spent some time to actually understand it? Mistakes happen to everyone, correct way to go is to play around consequences and not to modify game systems to make them irrelevant.
By real endgame i meant a progression system that will stretch your playtime after the campaign by a huge amount. Because character progression in NRFTW is very deterministic, the current endgame systems are simply too short, you can max out everything in matter of few hours and there is not enough challenge that could test the limits of your build and abilities. It is ok if the game does not strive to be a live service, and that’s probably the case for NRFTW, but it means that when players reach endgame they will play few more hours at best and just quit, because there is no point to continue. But if the game has many other play styles and players are still interested in the game, they will create new characters and replay whole campaign over.
I know, i merely wanted to ridicule the notion of giving players options to control their experience is always a good thing.
I was level 15 when I was looking to respec and try out a different build. It was weird to me to have to go through crucible runs just to respec when it could’ve been a part of the core progression unlocks.
I wouldn’t consider more accessible respecing as “heavy casualisation”.
The moral judgment I’m referring to isn’t that choices without consequences lack a meaning, I’m referring to your argument that players you deem as casuals are “not real gamers”, thus not worth listening to about game development, regardless if they are actually casuals or not. And you think they’re ruining games, this one in particular. You’re arguing that casual players are ruining the game. Your logic isn’t mutually exclusive from your moral judgment. Your sense of logic is used to make that moral judgment, but it doesn’t mean that it’s objective truth. You deem it as objective truth within the context of your values and principles. It is not objectively true that incorporating respecing has made the game worse and completely ruined the identity of the game and that it’s now rife with low skill, casual gameplay.
This is a false equivalency - respecing is not the same as a reversing all/any decisions without consequence. This is your preference. You do not want the game to go in that direction, and I am in full agreement with you that the games identity should not be lost in order to appeal to low skilled players. The part I disagree with is that respecing is exclusively for low skilled players. And I can’t stress enough how minor of an issue this actually was for me - like I said, I had already gotten to max lvl at that point. I was 90% of the way through the game, I just put off my desire to test out new builds in order to finish the content and figured it was worth suggesting this for player retention & provide an avenue directly linked to replayability of the game. You can detest casuals all you want, but they contribute to the game just as much as hardcore/elitists and being a casual does not mean that you are low skilled. Being an elitist doesn’t even mean that, either; it just means you’re a snob.
Your general perspective is very elitist, and all of your posts prefer an experience appealing exclusively to hardcore players that alienates any sort of casual or “less than hardcore” play, even down to respecing. You think that the mere suggestion of making a minor feature that is already in the game more accessible is somehow going to destroy the game, make it shallow, and appeal exclusively to low skilled players.
Ironically, a lot of people who like to respec also love reading tooltips. It just so happens that other players who may not read tool tips benefit as well. This does not mean that respecing is only valued by casual, low skilled players that don’t read tooltips. Hope this is clear enough for you.
Intentions to replay a game is definitely is a factor of replayability - if there are barriers that discourage a player’s willingness to replay the game, then they’re not going to play the game. Or even continue playing it. Thinking that this isn’t a factor is incredibly short sighted. There are others ways to incentivise replayability - all of this is meant to target the player’s willingness to replay the game, like providing unlocked features/items once the main content is completed that either through a new playthrough and/or the current one. If replayability is a highlighted element of the game’s design, then it inevitably looks to increase the chances that a player continues to play the game. You do this by offering incentives. Like pestilence outbreaks are specifically to increase replayability of the game. This is undeniable that these incentives are meant to encourage a willingness in the player to continue playing the game by restarting on a new character and/or continuing their playthrough after the main content is completed.
Allowing respecing for character stats in a single/co-op ARPG without a defined class system is different than allowing respecing for classes in an online multiplayer ARPG with a defined class system. They have two completely different styles of gameplay, just because they are both ARPGs does not mean they are 1:1. There is no class system in NRFTW as of now, just character stats. Respecing character stats is not the same as respecing an entire class with the click of a button.
It’s unreasonable to expect that a game will almost exclusively appeal to your playstyle in every decision they make unless you’re the one creating it. There’s a reason why they are listening to player feedback to guide them, it’s a part of their ethos. You can have your opinion about that, and this thread isn’t the best place for expressing that - it would be worth it to start your own thread specifically about that and the direction of the game if you feel it is being negatively impacted by people you deem as casuals. Logically speaking, that’s why these forums exist - to give feedback directly to the developers & contribute influence toward the development of the game. Perhaps you should go to Moon Studios and let them know that you should be the only person that reviews/accepts/denies feedback in the NRFTW forums for them, since you are the only one that knows how to ensure the game is developed “properly”. Moon Studios clearly doesn’t know what they’re doing without your influence.
And what does that mean, exactly? Every game has a lifecycle, and solo games are meant to be complete experiences that don’t go on forever. You think you are better because you’ve played 300 hours instead of someone who has played 40, and thus your feedback/influence is the most deserving - not just more deserving - because … you put in the effort to keep playing 300 hours of a solo/co-op game that has like 40 hours of single playthrough content? Perhaps the game you are playing isn’t exclusively designed for people who want to spend 1000 hours in the game - spending 100s of hours in a game because you enjoy it and love the content does not mean that it was intentionally designed like that. There’s definitely value in the playerbase that will spend 100s of hours in the game to learn everything and explore everything, but this doesn’t mean that this is the only playerbase that has valuable feedback, and I don’t know why you think the game should be designed exclusively for players like you. You’re a valued player and every game should strive for a loyal playerbase, but the reality is that you may not end up being the avg player that the game is targeting, and you will either have to learn to live with the decisions of the developers or just move on to something else. Nothing is meant to last forever, not even Diablo.
So you’re complaining about all of it, then. Any respecing whatsoever, you think it shouldn’t be a part of the game and completely devalues the game because it appeals to people you consider casuals. Does this mean that this isn’t an authentic progression of their vision for the game? What do you actually think about the people at Moon Studios accepting feedback like this into their development of the game?
Respecing is already in the game. I respeced accordingly to find the build I liked with the weapon I preferred. So yes, your assumptions were wrong. FYI, this is a moral judgment - you believe I am “bad” because you assume I didn’t read tooltips or anything else, and I’m currently at 50 hours of playtime in the game. Why would I spend 50 hours in a game, completing not only the main content but also a bunch of other stuff, if your assumptions were accurate? And I’ll probably add another 30-50 hours once co-op comes out. I’m going to presume that my willingness to replay the game with my friends and random people from discord will greatly increase, along with all of the content that they’re going to be releasing because the game isn’t even finished yet.
It’s like you think that more time in the game and hating everything that casuals like = good, high-skilled player that objectively enjoys the game, and less time in the game and liking some things that casuals and new players happen to like = bad, low-skilled player that objectively doesn’t even know how to enjoy a game because they’re just a casual pleb that doesn’t know how to play videogames. Did I get that right?
How many hours of core content do you think a solo/co-op game should have, and why do you think that solo/co-op games should be greatly extended/played beyond their core content? Again, your play experience is not my play experience and my play experience is not your play experience. The game isn’t going to be a shallow puddle of water because an extremely low skilled casual simmer pleb that can’t tie their shoes suggested that respecing character stats could be more accessible.
Giving players options to control their experience is always a good thing =/= any conceivable option to control a player’s experience is good
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This is crazy.
Like bat sh*t crazy that people think free respecing is going to make or break this game where there fundamental issues needing to be addressed.
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the actual “issue” is, that we still talk about it even tho the stat system will be gone or heavily changed anyways.
i personally can understand why it is currently still behind crucible. and said enough about my personal reasons why it makes sense.
and looking into the future i just hope the stat system changes will come before or with coop release! coop will boost sales and when they change the system afterwards i see another shitstorm coming.
NRFTW is at its best when you have finished the story. Early game is also great, but not for the 4th or 5th time. You suggest on multiple occasions to create new characters to experience those weapons that are already in my stash. Yet in order to do so, I would need to spend hours to get to the point where I am able to equip them. How is this not pedding and what is so bizarre that I find it a waste of time?
I have a question in all this @Crake you do know that you can have multiple characters to use for your first playthrough?
As in you can have 5 or more characters sharing 1 realm aka “first playthrough”.
You dont have to make a new realm where you would start from scratch for each and every new character.
I’m asking because I got confused by you saying you would have to do the story again and start from scratch when you dont have to do any of that with a new character.
The only thing you would have to do is lvl up those new characters.
Starting a new character and leveling them up to the appropriate level to try out a weapon/build is not a preferred alternative for me. Respecing is already in the game and fulfills this desire.
Just do it for now..
If they probably are going to change the stat system or remove it.
For What Purpose, would changes to the Respec do if they eventually erase the attribute system?
(they will probably do a full wipe again when that happens)
Also tell me..
How would you have done if the Respec system didn’t exist in NRFTW?
^(Play with your thoughts and answer that please)
That’s exactly it. I’m not expecting any changes to the respec system because the character stats are going away eventually. I originally suggested this because I wasn’t aware that they were going to remove character stats.
Now, the thread has been about respecing in general.
I steered the conversation towards more general philosophy and player mindset, because this one particular change on its own would not be a big deal. But add ledge protecion here, lower fall damage there, make enemies less difficult, trivialize food system with overpowered healing rune, remove consequences from choices and original experience changes a lot. Complex mechanics are replaced with easy ones, choices are only illusionary, “inconvinient” systems gets trivialized, predatory monetizations are implemented (this is general statement, there will be no microtransactions in NRFTW). Thus quality of a game drops significantly for more involved players. Most people won’t notic this transition until it is too late, because it happens over time. Similar concept to overton window.
Casual and hardcode players are two sides of the same coin. Both groups want games that will suit them. Nobody argues just to spite the other group, at least in general. The primary motivation is to express that besides casual titles there is a strong need for more deep, complex and hard games. And because arguing is fun.
The sad reality is that it is impossible to fully satisfy both groups at the same time. Since gaming went mainstream companies try to appeal to as wide of an audience as possible, to maximize profits. Understandable, but it makes games very bland.
Anyway, attribute system will be replaced in the future with a “job” system similar to final fantasy tactics one. Hope it will have some depth in it. There is an interesting post of Moon Studio’s CEO and lead designer about this attribute system replacement stuff.
Are you a Path of Exile player by any chance? From your previous posts i conclude that you have some kind of aversion to replaying the campaign, why is that?
Let’s try to imagine, that there is no campaign, quests nor npcs in this game. You spawn on the beach and your goal is to go through levels (almost like in a platformer game) and kill all bosses. Why replaying such a game with different approaches would be a waste of time? Sure exploration would not feel as good as with the first time, but you can have a proper experience with new build from the ground up. Changing the build after you finished the game is not that interesting, cuz you can use all resources you gathered up to this point to instantly upgrade, roll best mods and exalt the item. Why would you spend any significant time playing it, when there is no more goals to achieve whatsoever?
That’s why the best way to experience new playstyles is to build it from the ground up. Create new character on a new world and play without any help from your gathered materials from the main world.
Just because it is going to be changed in the future, it doesn’t mean that they should ignore player concerns right now.
People are playing now and if they end up quitting because of this, they are not going to come back later when the system is changed. Class changes are at least 4-6 months away from now with multi-player being the next big update.
Every reason or argument put forth in favour of gatekeeping this feature has been a projection of some sort. The idea that gatekeeping this feature gives meaning to your choices is conflation of meaning with consequence. Meaning is positive, consequence in punitive. You are punishing players for their mistakes and adding frustration to their experience.
I see no real logical argument for this beyond seeking to control others experience. Can anyone put it in one simple sentence as to why would it ruin the game if respecing was not locked behind Crucible? I’m not saying make it free, I said take it out of the Crucible which is meant to be an end game loop.
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i honestly do not mind if its in crucible, if it costs ichor or if u craft a potion to respec with 10 bear claws or whatever. i just think it should not be there from level 1. let people learn the mechanics. let them learn how to compensate for a bad choice, let them learn upgrades are more important that levels, then when they are mid to endgame give them respec. nobody needs respec for their first 5 skillpoints. lets be real here.
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Answered that question many times, but I will repeat it for you.
Because I can fight the same bosses and the same mobs, but stronger in pestilence zones. And that at a much higher frequency than in a campaign.
But…
I
do
not
have
the gear
I want
to test
on
a
fresh
realm!!!
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Again, you don’t provide any logical explanation for your opinion.
If your proposition is that such changes would negatively affect process of game learning, you need to explain why. Otherwise, this is just ego talk.
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its maths. put your first skillpoint in STR, then 30 seconds later “oh no i wanted it in DEX my build is ruined i need respec”. pretty sure that does not make or break your game or your exploration experience.
same goes for the next point u spec into END instead of HP. still does NOT make or break your build. if u end up with 5 in each stat then u have a broken build, but then you would have to have had 5 skillpoints (lvls) per stat. so it becomes relevant in the mid to late game, not early on. not sure how that is hard to understand.
also not sure what kind of productive input it is to refer to someone’s ego and personality again, or how that is of any relevance.
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