Why is respeccing gated?

I have played about 35 hrs of the game so far - really like it! It’s very enjoyable. I’ve gotten to max lvl using primarily greatsword and want to try other builds, but respeccing is gated behind the crucible, and then it will take fallen embers to actually respec.

As a new player, this is frustrating because there are things with my early build that I messed up and I don’t like that I have to spend fallen embers to respec those missteps. It feels like I’m being punished for my early mistakes as well as wanting to try out new builds/weapons.

I don’t think the Fallen Ember cost is too bad, you get to reallocate multiple skill points per Fallen Ember.
But I agree that the respec statue being gated behind the Crucible midway shop is not ideal.
You can however, in the Crucible find some upgrades like “Skip straight to the shop”, so even if you have a bad build, you should be able to get there.

i said it already in one of the other countless threads about this: respec should not be possible from the start! that people think respec is necessary to “fix a broken build” or to solve a problem/difficult situation is exactly why it should not be easily accessible.

changing stats back and forth is not the only way to overcome a challenge. sometimes you maybe even need to force players to think about their problem and possible solutions, not just only press the “undo” button.

choices should matter, and clever adjustment should be rewarded.

plus the stat system is gonna go anyways at some point, so there is no real “solution” but to wait.

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It’s good to hear that stats will be going away at some point.

I don’t agree that having a friendly respec system means that choices don’t matter - I understand that your playstyle is this way but not everyone prefers to play that way. This is a barrier to exploratory gameplay. Players can’t try out different builds/weapons effectively unless they just deal with their current stats. It’s not a huge ask to allow respeccing that is easier than using the crucible or creating a new character entirely. Your choices will still matter, and players that wish to respec their builds early/mid game will have an easier time. Giving players the option to test out new weapons and builds wouldn’t mean that your choices in the game matter any less.

well, i disagree. its very common in almost all RPGs i played that u can not respec at all, or you have to craft super expensive potions which mostly require endgame ingredients, and still u can vary builds, test new weapons etc. so if u want to play a mage in dark souls for example u need a new char or new game +, which also strongly promotes replayability. In skilltree based games you learned skills are oftentimes final or you need aforementioned potion.

respec should not be a “try out new build” thing in the sense of today i pump everything in STR and tomorrow i change everything again to DEX. for that you have multiple realms and characters. respec should only be for situations like: damn i did not understand weapon scaling and requirements and leveled all stats, now i am bad at everything. and that u only need endgame, if u notice earlier u can simply level in a direction u want to go.

plus, i might be wrong, but u can just use a weapon and check its runes and attack combos. if u like it, skill towards it, if not toss it or keep it for the next char.

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The existance of different build options by itself promotes replayability. The need to start a new game/character is just padding.
The possibility to respec does not hinder a player to start a new game/character and have a different experience with a different build. On the other hand, respec option allows players to stay in the content range they enjoy the most and experience it in different ways without the downtime/lvling inbetween, which could be a reason to not engage with game any more.

Why is this the supperior design approach? What are the benefits?

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the benefits lie in immersion and the weight of a players choices. its just immersion breaking that you feed some statue with resources and magically turn from harry potter into hulk.

and it should matter lore wise and roleplay wise what u choose to level. when u can respec anytime, why would you even think about how to invest points or what weapon to chose in this realm and with that char? whatever u do does not matter at all once u can respec from lvl 1 forward.

its very common in almost all RPGs i played that u can not respec at all, or you have to craft super expensive potions which mostly require endgame ingredients, and still u can vary builds, test new weapons etc. so if u want to play a mage in dark souls for example u need a new char or new game +, which also strongly promotes replayability. In skilltree based games you learned skills are oftentimes final or you need aforementioned potion.

Having a robust stat system - and if they are planning on removing character stats to begin with, they are probably already thinking like this - encourages players to choose and learn different weapons, runes, armour stats instead of staying with 1-2 weapons the entire game. I’m not sure that trying to pigeon-hole players into replaying the game just to freely try out new builds is the most effective way to encourage replayability; I think it actually makes it worse.

An easily accessible, low/free cost respeccing system for character stats will encourages replayability - replayability is not just about making new characters and progressing through the story again, it’s also about desiring to do so in the first place. Respeccing is already in the game as well - not only in terms of character stats but also in terms of weapons & armour stats/runes and utility runes. The game does value giving players the ability to customise their builds to their playstyle, so I’m not sure why this would be an issue. Giving the choice once the crucible is unlocked or something AND either allowing players to spend a modest amt of coins or just respeccing freely would encourage players to play the game more, not less. This is a single player/co-op game, I just don’t understand why it’s a concern here.

should not be a “try out new build” thing in the sense of today i pump everything in STR and tomorrow i change everything again to DEX. for that you have multiple realms and characters.

Why shouldn’t it? I get that in Dark Souls, stats work that way, but there are plenty of other games that don’t, and I think they are better for it. I play games like Guildwars 2 and V Rising which have very flexible character build mechanics - I love playing my own builds in these games & looking at videos of other peoples builds. I’ve replayed the main storyline of V Rising probably 5-6 times at this point with several different characters in several different servers, and I have almost 1000 hours in that game, partially because it’s an online multiplayer and majorly because I can switch between skills, weapons, etc. and respec my build to try out against PVP & PVE content. In Guildwars 2, I’ve played it for almost 2k hours with 9 different characters, all with several different classes/stories … being given the ability to freely respec my build has only encouraged replayability in these games.

A friendly respec system would champion replayability through design, not hinder or prevent it. Nothing would be taken away from players that wish to only make 1 choice for their stats and that’s it. Respeccing system already exists in the game, so they do value it and want to give players that option, my suggestion is to remove more of the gating around it.

the benefits lie in immersion and the weight of a players choices. its just immersion breaking that you feed some statue with resources and magically turn from harry potter into hulk.

I don’t understand this - you can cook/build things in a 3 second animation, store sawmills and furnaces in your inventory, and be a highly nimble dexterous character that has the muscle mass of a gorilla, but having the option to respe your stats breaks your immersion? If you only want to be Harry Potter or The Hulk exclusively, you can still do that. I don’t see how other people respeccing or just having the option in the first place breaks immersion for you.

and it should matter lore wise and roleplay wise what u choose to level. when u can respec anytime, why would you even think about how to invest points or what weapon to chose in this realm and with that char? whatever u do does not matter at all once u can respec from lvl 1 forward.

It’s up to the player to decide that. Giving players more options to control their experience is a good thing.

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The fact that I can find a plagued heavy armor or a graet hammer on an archer is just as immersion breaking. At the end of the day it is a highly subjective matter what is and what is not immersion breaking.

  1. The R in RPG usually describes whether your character will hit an enemy with a hammer or a fireball, because the rollplaying mostly extends to combat roles. And if there are quests then you can be either “bad” or “good”. This is not roleplaying. Disco Elysion would be only game I ever played that deserves that R.
    NRFTW in its current state does not support any range of roleplay. There are no quests/decissions. A big sword can require Int or Str or Faith. Stats do not carry any meaning besides what weapons you can use effectively.
  2. If I understand this correctly you speak in favor of “raw” experience, kinda “learn your lesson” way. This is a bold move and might turn away a good number of players, because unfortunately your experience depends heavily on the weapon in the hands of you character. And not all weapons are made equal.
    Everyone has an individual approch, you might take whatever comes; others will spend hours on wiki or YT researching & planing; others will just drop the game because no fun.
    NRFTW wants to be a difficult game, this does not mean it must be inconvenient.

Not gonna lie I about fell outta my chair reading this after readying the verbal jousting over ledge protection in the patch notes thread.

Shoes on the other foot this time tho, no?

Isn’t OP just providing feedback based on their experience? What’s the harm in that

there is no harm in asking why respec is behind an endgame wall, and i merely stated why it is good that it is not available at level 1. there are requirements to respec and for me personally it totally makes sense that you need to go through cerim trials to gain access to that feature.

while ledge protection has absolutely nothing to do with that. it does not influence how players approach builds, skill their char or gain loot. ledge protection is absolutely non invasive while respec from the start would be invasive. aside from the fact that it will be obsolete soon anyways, it would prevent players from actually finding solutions for problems. once u can just press a redo button players will not think about how their character forms, how their problems can be overcome by improvising or how proper upgrades and smart char building can get u access to said reset button.

respec is fine, but there should be hurdles to achieve that. it should matter how u build a char, it should matter which resources u loot, what weapons u upgrade etc.

for me just respecing a char at lvl 3, again at level 5 and again at lvl 10 and 12 by praying to a statue is immersion breaking. it makes all choices a player makes absolutely obsolete.

Freeing up the respec ability is not going to kill this game or negatively affect it any way shape or form.

This argument has no real leg in reality, and has more to do with your controlling personality. :eyes:

Players are not sheep. Gameplay is not homework so that you can say: Sit down, do your work and someday it will all make sense. If someone is stuck, or simply isn’t having fun, or just wants to try something new, the ability to do so without hassle is not going to have any detrimental effects. In the scenario that you’re describing, the person will simply find out that respecing was not their problem and they need to work on something else.

And please don’t refer me to Elden Ring and other Souls game. This is a crappy practice and no matter what game does it, it doesn’t make it right or fun.

So what? Remember when I said being called “they” in my face as a male character was immersion breaking? And YOU totally dismissed the whole notion? Your immersion shouldn’t imprison other players. If it’s immersion breaking, don’t do it.

FREE RESPEC = PLAYER RESPECT

You’re not my mom.

<3

because “they” is perfectly fine english that existed even before we existed.

and i really think you should not assume anything about peoples personality. that has no place here. and adding a <3 to your post does not make it less confrontational :wink: just as a general tip for civil communication.

Yeah, the fallen ember isn’t that bad it’s just the gating behind the crucible that I don’t like. If it was just fallen embers with the statue once the crucible is unlocked, I wouldn’t have as much of an issue.

Yeah, used when the gender of the subject is unknown. Not when I’m standing here with a mountainous beard or when my character has bosoms the size of a pomelo.

Moderator, wants to gatekeep fun, has double standards when it comes to her immersion vs other’s … I’d say that’s deduction rather assumption.

Conflicting views are confrontational in essence, <3 was a sign of no ill intent. If that makes me a barbarian, then so be it. Although you’re not really giving me a tip on how to be more “civil”. You’re just saying I’m not? That’s a horrible tip. I want a refund.