What is the purpose of weapon Durability in NRFTW? (Is Death punish mechanic, but let's talk about it)

“Excuse”? That’s how it works if the game works.

If it becomes irrelevant afterwards, it’s a problem/characteristic of the game economy. Also the initial stages of the game are still important, early game must be well designed too.

My system solves more than one problem, If the durability were completely eliminated all the problems would be solved, it’s true, But I think the “Tiredness” Bar has a certain respect for the original idea, but also solves most of the problems.

You can play the game while it recovers you don’t have to stay still, you recover over time does not mean you recover while you are standing still, I don’t know if you’ve ever used beds in this game but I think your character lies down for a second to get the effect, you don’t have to wait.

I think it would be interesting from a psychological point of view to make the player, who died many times in a row, take a little break to go to the town to let the character rest on the bed.

And I also find it interesting how the system integrates the beds into the game.

Giving the opportunity to get the high tier bed buff at the right time to serve the player.

I think the system is healthy and interesting but that said if the benefits are less than the advantages then it is better not to have any punishment upon death.

My goal is to make a system that keeps the only interesting part of the durability system intact. But if that isn’t worth saving, then so be it.

It seems so to me, I think that punishing the player when he dies can be important for a psychological factor.

The fact that the fatigue bar is clearly visible unlike the durability bar (which is essentially hidden) is important, it gives the player the feeling that the game is not designed to make you win.

While inexorably defeating enemies that dont’ respawn gives the feeling that, no meter how incompetent you may be will sooner or later the game will let you proceed, because there are no consequences.

And it is important that the consequences are short term since the error is short term, but it is difficult to find a system that works well in this area, the one idea that came to mind is:

(extract from Comment 5)

I think we can learn from the Hollow Knight “corpse run” mechanic, without introducing the loss of resources:

When the Serim dies as in Hollow Knight he loses a part of his maximum focus, but not his resources, to recover his maximum focus he must defeat an entity that was born in the place where he died.

Obviously “the entity” must not be too strong otherwise it would be too frustrating and in the case of a boss fight it is born in front of the boss’s arena and not inside it, furthermore by defeating “the entity” it gives you back all the focus you had when you died and it heals the damage that the entity has inflicted on you.

What do you think, is this a good idea?

I see, sometimes the best game design solution is to let the player be free.

But I think it is also important to direct the player to do what is best for their experience:

Dying more than 15-20 times in a row without a break creates a situation that reduces learning.

Obviously, different players have different resilience, so it’s difficult to find the correct number, but it makes sense to suggest that the player take a short break. Obviously, this can’t be done with a pop-up; it would be terrible.

xD, sometimes I’m like that too. but I try to avoid suggesting to eliminate things from the game since by following that path the game will become unrecognizable.

it’s a bit too vague, but after these discussions I think I have a clearer idea of ​​what a real system overhaul would look like:

I think I’ll make a new topic, something like “We need to make going back to Sacrament Fun & Fair”

And I think I will connect this system to the inventory as well, which is the other reason why we need to go back to Sacrament.

The summary is that I will propose that the inventory needs to be way bigger, like one more column.

but the reason why you have to go and empty it is that every time you die the “Tiredness” Bar fills up more based on how full the inventory is.

So you have to return to Sacrament only when the “Tiredness” Bar fills up not because the inventory is full (occasionally it happens that the inventory is full but it is rare and it is only due to the weapons and armor).

So with this system the player who explores well and collects all the resources is not punished for having obtained many items but is punished if he dies with many items.

With an empty inventory you can die about 25-40 times against a boss, the Ichor is used to increase the capacity of “Tiredness” Bar instead of the inventory capacity.

And I will actually use numbers to explain the balance of the mechanics instead of remaining vague.

I think I understand your general reasoning as follows:
‘The game experience needs to be smoother but not without any friction. The original design has merit. Here is a proposal on how to maintain the essence and fix some of its issues. Though I’m also open to a more radical overhaul.’
Would that be a fair characterization? It seems we mostly agree in our broad wants, but differ in our ‘ought to be’, and can agree to disagree on those. I’m interested in how your new topic will shape up with actual numbers.

Honestly, Moon could maybe grab a few of the most reasonable suggestions/ideas and just do a poll. Get some hard data to figure out player preferences. Though getting an unbiased sample will be an interesting challenge in and of itself.

Nonetheless, some notes:

The dying in and of itself is a reasonable indication that you’re going to need to work to win in this game. Or do you feel like there is a lack of punch to the dying? If yes, how do you feel about this:

When the player dies, the screen fades to dark and has the message “The pestilence spreads!” with pulsing purple organic veins on the screen border, while the enemies slowly drag away your body.

This inserts a lot of ‘feel’ without mechanics obstructing gameflow.

Honestly, a player willing to fight through a zone with:

  • a red zone name
  • a high zone level indicator in red
  • enemies that take minutes to beat and one-shot you
  • enemies having skulls above their HP bar
  • resources that take 10 hits to take down
  • no active quests

They earn whatever they can retrieve from that zone, they need no further punishment. They are where they wish to be, in hell.
Furthermore, there are very obvious consequences, it takes immense IRL time to achieve a clear of this zone. And the loot, as far as I understand, is controlled by your character level and bosses defeated, so they won’t even get much better loot after achieving this nonsense feat.

I feel like the inherent short-term consequence of this short-term mistake is the player getting one-shot by the first mob.

On a final note: I’m being critical of the death mechanics, but I really hope Moon manages to make it interesting/engaging, be that: a corpse run, Dragon Rot-esque system, a Hollow Knight-esque ghost, or something else entirely. I’m mostly just very wary of tedious friction, not friction in and of itself.

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I dont like this. Durability is used in this game to provide the exact opposite dying in souls games give. Its incentive not to go too far in a zone you’re not ready for and encourages exploring instead of bashing your head against a wall OR your resources will slowly drain. At the same time enemies not respawning right away after you clear an area allows you to feel triumph even in death like progress is being made but you don’t HAVE to go the same way to fight a difficult enemy to get what you dropped on death. Tiredness system seems to push too hard in the direction of chilling in sacrament. Housing, materials, inventory, and crafting do that plenty.

I know.

The beds that are already there, if you don’t want to do Housing there are beds at the inn and those in the tower.

So the thing that changes is that you don’t have to pay the locksmith.

And if you decide to upgrade the inn or buy higher tier beds then you have the perfect opportunity to use them.

Hm…feels a bit like deleveling to me, which is never a fun mechanic. I don’t want to have kill stuff just to become as effective as a character as I already used to be…it feels regressive.

Honestly, I like that death isn’t over punished. It’s right at that sweet spot where I don’t want to die, but I’m not feeling actual fear of it. When I do crucible runs, the time lost on the run is already a heavy incentive for me to not die on the boss.

I think losing durability is immediate enough for me because if I die enough times, I have to stop and repair. It’s a signal I’m doing something wrong, or I’m in a place I shouldn’t be. But it’s not a hard wall.

I don’t want a mechanic that wastes my time for dying in any way, so no corpse runs for sure. I’m not really sure how I’d even propose something more punishing but isn’t a time waster. I don’t like tiredness either unless it can be rested off quickly, but then it’s basically just repairing but without the money cost.

It can be rested off quickly, it’s just like taking the bed buff, your character lies down on the bed and then you can get up right away.

Yes and no, The fact that you have to go to the bed instead of going to the blacksmith is a significant change since it gives you the opportunity to use the bed buffs.

Also the tiredness bar it fills up a little every time you die but over time it empties itself.

So if you play well for long periods of time the bar empties completely even if you don’t return to Sacrament.

How is this not “wait it out” eaxctly? you just contradicted yourself by saying you have to time off NOT PLAYING to get a random bed and sleeping a few seconds.
I dont see how is that even more interesting that taking a few seconds to go and repair, there is 0 difference even if you add a “buff” to sleeping, it would just force you to sleep instead, the time waste is the same

if a system only work on a first play through then its should just not be there to begin with, I dont think you can balance this in any shape, and even in this game, you can easily farm money and repair is NEVER a problem or really impact you

how so? just because I die 4-5 times in a row against the same monster that can sometimes leap more than half a screen away and nearly 2 shots me, there is nothing to learn here, no matter what, same is true from boss.
you just have to understand a certain pattern and many bosses can easily kill you if you make a mistake, even if you died 20 times and take a few seconds to use a bed I dont see how that make any difference to your learning, you still throw yourself at the boss if you feel like it.

Again, I dont think you can add any consequence that is just not seen as time lost, no matter how fancy it look, the bed mechanic is not different

in the sense that it doesn’t take as much time as going back to the store to repair items, but it takes less time because you have to do it less often.

I already explained it to you.

I’ve been there more times where I was out of money and I couldn’t buy anything because I had to repair the items, just because it didn’t happen to you doesn’t mean it never happens.

Attention is a limited resource, and excessive stress diminishes learning ability, (the right amount of stress, however, can improve learning). It’s psychology, if you don’t know it, it’s normal, they don’t teach it to you at school for some reason.

What do you mean? I don’t understand, Learning the bosses’ moves is doable, the only “complex” boss so far is the Echo Knight.

The difference is that with my system if you don’t die the “Tiredness” Bar goes down, and therefore rewards the player if he goes long periods without dying.

Small breaks during a learning section improves learning, psychology is a science we know this is true for most subjects.

Again, as I said, if it’s not worth it, they just remove the durability and that’s it, without adding any new mechanics to compensate.

I think there is some good in the durability system so I tried to “extract” it and thought about this system.

As you can see in the posts in this topic the options are quite divided, there are those who like it and those who don’t.

This clearly indicates that there is value in the system, but it does not mean that it is perfect.

And as I have already written I intend to write a new complete topic where I go into more detail and try to reduce the problems to a minimum while maximizing the benefits.

Obviously I hope my new idea works But, if even after having perfected the idea it is not worth it that’s ok, we remove the durability without any compensation.

At least we proved that it’s not worth it.

time lost is time lost in most system people could propose
repair, exp lost, sleeping, resting whatever, they are all the same idea, take time “not engaging” in the game.
why not just slap a 1 minute timer after 20 death in short succession? I mean that just the same
I dont want mobile game mechanic

im not sure how is that relevant here, and also im not sure how is that even possible, you literally had 0 coins? you died 30 times in a row where you had to repair and had 0 things to sell?
i think im missing something here
and again that only possible in a first play through and NOT a challenge after very short time

huh? dying in a game is not stressful, if you are feeling stressed then this game is not for you.

you keep saying its different when its not sadly. it just time, doesnt matter if it “shorter”

unrelated to playing the game, I should not be forced by the game mechanic doing it for me, not everyone learn the same way

Ill be happy if a good system exist, but to me I dont think its possible unless it just a personal option like hardcore.
if at the end it just a waste of time, then its doesnt belong, simply
I will accept any death consequence because I dont care like this repair system, im just playing the game as is, if they are too harsh like losing non farm-able resources permanently like in Dark Souls, I would just NOT play

I understand, in fact I’m trying to find a way to solve the problem, I already told you, and I mean that you think about it again in a few days and I’ll publish the new topic with the new ideas.

You said that paying doesn’t matter, because the price is so low that it’s easily ignoreable and I’m telling you that’s not the case.

Yes, If you are interested in buying new weapons, armor, or even home furniture, you will run out of money. If you engage with all the game mechanics you will run out of money, if you don’t you will collect it without doing anything. Since I try to get more weapons and armor sometimes I can’t sell them and this means I also have less money.

Since I’m always gathering resources, tools always break, and I have to pay to repair them even if I die a little, and since I often can’t sell weapons and armor, I don’t have much money.

No, I think at most I’ve died 15 times in a row in this game but I’m not sure.

I always repair first thing when I get back to Sacrament, so no, but I often found myself wanting to buy something, I had nothing left to sell, and if I had had the 2.50 silver that I spent to repair the items/tools I could have bought what I needed.

I think you simply didn’t realize that different players play the game in different ways.

Having a lot of money without using it at all is a very common experience, but if you start doing everything you can do in the game you will run out of money quickly and often.

Look around, do you really think that the average player doesn’t start to get stressed if he dies 15 times in a row?

I’ve seen people get angry after 3-7 deaths.

Of course it’s not a mature attitude to have, getting angry with the game, but it’s true that it happens to many, and many of these people who get angry with the game, still love it and even if they are angry they want to play it.

Also, IF you’re talking about me specifically: what I did wrong to make you think I’m a hot-tempered person, don’t you think that’s a bit of a stretch? What reason do you have to be so antagonistic? I am not your enemy.

If the differences aren’t enough for you, I understand, and as I’ve already told you, I intend to solve the problems of this system.

but to say that the differences don’t exist is ridiculous, maybe I didn’t explain myself well enough when I explained them to you?

This is true, not everyone is the same, but we are similar.

I repeat again, I am already aware of this fallacy of the system, and I have the intention of fixing it.

I’ll try, then maybe you won’t even like it, but there is certainly room for improvement.

Even though I like the game I think the game can be better, and so I try to point out and then fix its problems.

Even if the devs don’t follow my advice at least it’s an interesting conversion.

I understand and I must say I appreciate greatly that you are well verse in your replies
I guess I have to put myself in other players sometimes and I may have a hard time seeing it when even when I was just going on I had no money problem but I wasnt paying any house cosmetic way way before anything else and I bought the 5 silver house at the start because of that.

I am not a designer and even thought I played thousand of games I have a hard time thinking of a good system
Because if the system can be too easily overcome then it basically doesnt exist, if it too harsh then it become unfun

What Im going to finish this , even if the system is non consequential it can be made “fun”

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I actually kind of like the idea of ”sleeping it off” when you die too many times. I find the durability system to be annoying because of the cost to repair and not necessarily the need to go back to sacrament for literally one minute. However, it only really works if there are other things to do while you are in sacrament like selling loot and buying new stuff.

The good thing with repairing is that the smith is right next to the other vendors so the experience becomes smoother when you return to sacrament. If you would have to go to your house every time the tiredness bar fills up it feels a lot more like a chore I think. At that point why not just make repairing free instead? Well then the system has no real impact on gameplay and is only a mandatory break from playing the game.

Though I think the idea sounds a little interesting I dont like when systems forces the player to engage with them (beds, furniture and so on). This would be an example where players are forced to do just that and I actually think it would be detrimental to the game in the long run.

In my opinion dying in and of itself is actually punishing enough. A player knows if a boss is beatable or not after a few tries, some might keep bashing their head but most players would realize they need more levels and upgraded gear after a short while. The only problem with the current system is that it punishes bad players more than good players which is not inclusive, but it gives a player a good indication they need to get stronger. Other systems with actual negative consequenses are terrible for this type of game in my opinion because they make the player weaker or arbitrarily halts progress.

The current system atleast favors the realism in the game. If you bite off more than you can chew with a tough boss, take some time to level up and try again and in the process make money so that repairing isn’t really a problem. In the end game it’s tedious sure but if you hate it so much just get indestructible on all your gear.

I also thought about this complication (Post 21):

I think I’ll make a new topic, something like “We need to make going back to Sacrament Fun & Fair”

And I think I will connect this system to the inventory as well, which is the other reason why we need to go back to Sacrament.

The summary is that I will propose that the inventory needs to be way bigger, like one more column.

but the reason why you have to go and empty it is that every time you die the “Tiredness” Bar fills up more based on how full the inventory is.

So you have to return to Sacrament only when the “Tiredness” Bar fills up not because the inventory is full (occasionally it happens that the inventory is full but it is rare and it is only due to the weapons and armor).

So with this system the player who explores well and collects all the resources is not punished for having obtained many items but is punished if he dies with many items.

With an empty inventory you can die about 25-40 times against a boss, the Ichor is used to increase the capacity of “Tiredness” Bar instead of the inventory capacity.

And I will actually use numbers to explain the balance of the mechanics instead of remaining vague.

True but it is also true that both the beds in the towers and the beds in the house are close to the Chests, so if you have to put materials in the chest, (which is something you always do since you don’t sell everything) the trips are the same.

I understand, I thought about this too, you’ll see.

Understandable.

Repairing your equipment doesn’t cost money if you use the repair rune. If your Focus isn’t charged, just charge it on the training dummy and you’re good to go.

And in the endgame, the problem disappears with the number of builds you can create that have good Focus regeneration.

I don’t think complicating the death penalty will make the gameplay more enjoyable.

The cost of repair is too small to matter, and travel is too fast to stop you from just repairing whenever you want. Since your equipment only gets damaged when you die it’s just a stick to beat worse players. The implementation in nrftw is one of the worst out there as it doesn’t affect how you play the game at all, just wastes your time.