UPDATE: Poll Results, Analysis & Discussion: Plate is Overpowered

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This post contains a poll with results and analysis of T3 plate armor.

The Poll

Votes are anonymous.

In comparison to Cloth armor, Plate armor is:
  • Overpowered
  • Stronger
  • Balanced
  • Weaker
  • Underpowered
0 voters
Which Type of Armor do you primarily wear?
  • Plate
  • Mesh
  • Leather
  • Cloth
0 voters

The Poll is Closed.

Results

I’m just giving a very basic interpretation of the results.

Armor Summary
Armor Summary1309×855 19.5 KB

Plate armor when compared to Cloth armor.

  • 38% of people think Plate is overpowered when compared to Cloth

  • 33% of people think Plate is stronger when compared to Cloth

  • 24% of people think Plate is balanced when compared to Cloth

  • 0% of people think Plate is weaker when compared to Cloth

  • 5% of people think Plate is underpowered when compared to Cloth

The data is obviously Skewed to the Right, this means that the Mode (the highest frequency) and Median (the middle value) are to the Left of the Mean (the average).

We don’t have to use statistics here since a visual representation (Current State vs Ideal State) is enough to draw the conclusion that plate is overpowered/stronger when compared to cloth.

The data does not resemble a normal distribution.

Primary Armor Type

  • 43% of people primarily wear Plate armor.

  • 31% of people primarily wear Mesh armor.

  • 17% of people primarily wear Leather armor.

  • 9% of people primarily wear Cloth armor.

The data is obviously Skewed to the Right, this means that the Mode (the highest frequency) and Median (the middle value) are to the Left of the Mean (the average).

We don’t have to use statistics here since a visual representation (Current State vs Ideal State) is enough to draw the conclusion that plate and mesh are more frequently worn than leather and cloth.

The data does not resemble a uniform distribution.

Analysis

The scope of this analysis is limited to comparing various T3 pieces of armor at it’s baseline. Meaning upgraded pieces of T3 armor, T1 and T2 armor are outside the scope. I compared various pieces of T3 gear and wrote down the approximate armor average, weight and poise per type: plate, mesh, leather and cloth. I’m also not factoring in weapon weight.

Current State

Most builds tend to favor Plate armor over any other type of armor due to the returns on armor and poise being too high with barely any off sets. Weight alone is not enough. The incentive is skewed into one direction with a stacking penalty of weight. There has to be an incentive to wear Cloth over Leather over Mesh over Plate.

This is the approximate* armor average for base T3 armor.

*approximate because finding the average for base T3 armor without knowing the upper limit, lower limit and distribution type is both nigh impossible and too time consuming for me.

Approximate Armor Average

The armor poise for base T3 armor does not fluctuate.
Armor Poise

The armor weight for base T3 armor does not fluctuate.
Armor Weight

This gets worse of you start to factor in lower tier gear which weighs less. Especially Plate. The blacksmith’s T2 set weighs 150 and the T3 set 250. Again, this is outside of the scope, but, still important to mention.

Base Cerim

A base Cerim has an equip load of 10 and can wear a 170 total weight. Every point into equip load adds 10 to the total weight.

The cutoff point for Low-Normal is 35% and for Normal-High 60%.

We can level up 29 times gaining 3 attribute points each time for a total of 87 attribute points.

Heavy Load

To be able to wear T3 base plate you need to invest 9 attribute points into equip load. This is 10,35% of your current max available attribute points. Not a whole lot.

Normal Load

Now if you want to wear plate and have a Normal equip load. You need to have 420 (lol) total weight. 420 x 60% = 252. Base T3 plate weighs 250. So you need to invest 25 points into equip load. This is 28,74% of your current max available attribute points. This is already looking more balanced.

However, we can add feather’s to our armor lowering to total weight of our armor. Feathers fluctuate between 9% and 30% so we will use 19,5% as an average. Which means our 250 weight armor now weighs 201,25. 201,25 / 0,6 = 335,42. 335,42 - 170 = 165,42. Which means we need to invest 17 points into equip load. This is 19,54% of your current max available attribute points.

Light Load

If you wish to wear Plate and have a Light load. We need to have an equip load of at least: 715.

250/0,35 = 714,29
714,29 - 170 = 544,29
544,29 / 10 = 55 (rounded up)

So we need to spend 55 attribute points to wear plate and have a light load. This is 63,22% of our attribute points. Here is where we can see the balancing portion of the game.

If we factor in feathers we have to spend 41 attribute points, 47,13% of our attribute points. This is already considerably less. But, it remains a large amount of attribute points to invest.

Additional Considerations

We can even go further than that if we look at affixes that increase equip load or rings that increase equip load. The trade off between Armor & Poise versus Weight is now even less impactful. There are 2 incentives towards plate with 1 down side that can be negated by too many factors.

In summary:

  • 9/87 attribute points to have a Heavy Load.

  • 25/87 attribute points to have a Normal Load.

  • 17/87 attribute points and 4 feathers to have a Normal Load.

  • 55/87 attribute points to have a Light Load.

  • 41/87 attribute points and 4 feathers to have a Light Load.

From the outset this may appear balanced if the goal is to have a Heavy Load with Plate, more taxing to achieve a Normal Load and too taxing to achieve a Light Load.

However, the main issue is Armor Types being skewed in favor of Plate. This is created by the Armor Value and poise being skewed towards Plate and nothing being skewed towards Cloth. With only a singular penalty for Plate, Weight.

In most CRPGs Plate armor has a higher armor value but lower dodge as a trade off, vice-verse for cloth. Now in Wicked there is no trade off favoring cloth. Using dodge would also not make any sense, since it is a soulslike. Yet, there should be a trade off.

Conclusion

What exists:

Incentive: Armor: Plate > Mesh > Leather > Cloth
Incentive: Poise: Plate > Mesh > Leather > Cloth
Penalty: Weight: Plate < Mesh < Leather < Cloth

What we need:

Incentive: Something: Cloth > Leather > Mesh > Plate

Example

If you want to be thematic about it you could replace ‘something’ with ‘‘Effective Focus Gain’’. Cloth wearer’s are usually associated with having more resources like mana. Meaning Cloth and Leather armor’s have more focus on focus gain and Mesh and Plate more focus on being tanky.

  • Cloth, Effective Focus Gain 100%

  • Leather, Effective Focus Gain 82,5%

  • Mesh, Effective Focus Gain 62,5%

  • Plate, Effective Focus Gain 50%

So, where plate wearers normally gain 40 focus they now gain 20, as trade off.

Don’t focus too much on the values, it’s an example.

9 Likes
2

I wondered if this would come up. I’ve been in voice chat on the Discord server with a Path of Exile player a couple times. They already optimized the weight:armor ratio as you’ve done here and it was definitely an eye opener.

I’m curious though. Is this an issue of Cloth not having enough for it or Equip Load as a stat doing too much heavy lifting?

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Bet there is no surprise to who made the post :joy:

This actually got me thinking and made me realize something I overlooked. Affixes can increase equip load and so can rings.

The trade off between Armor & Poise versus Weight becomes trivialized due to affixes, rings and feathers countering the weight off set.

I think Equip Load is probably fine, especially since T2 plate weighs less than T3. And I imagine in the future T4 plate will weigh more so Equip Load stays relevant.

But, Cloth desperately needs to have something in favor of it.

We need this.

4

I think we could get a lot better data if we also added some time-to-die tests. As in, how fast can X enemy kill a Cerim in full Y type of armor?

Especially, as we’ve seen, not everyone has soulslike experience. Being able to take an extra few hits can make the game multiple leagues better for someone less comfortable. Almost like the Giant Dad build of Dark Souls.

Perhaps they could do something unique like set bonuses for wearing multiple pieces of the same armor type? It could start at wearing two pieces, then increase if wearing 3 or 4. So you could have 2 weaker buffs (2 plate, 2 leather for example), or fully get the perks through wearing 4 leather.

  • Example ideas of perks:
    – Cloth offering move speed buffs.
    – Leather offering attack speed buffs.
    – Mesh offering poise buffs.
    – Plate offering armor buffs.
1 Like
5

Ima tell ya guys a secret… the one and only overpowered thing in this game is lightroll…surprise surprise…im sure noone seen it coming, this game being a souls like.
But jokes aside, numbers do need to get tweeked a bit across the board.
Honestly the only thing that matters at the end of the day is fashion and LIGHTROLL^^… i never pay attention to armor stats in this games to much cuz i just try to avoid dmg totally.

6

I like the idea of adding something extra to each armor type. It adds more incentive to each armor type as well then.

The trick is making it incentivizing enough without limiting player builds too much.

7

I don’t think it is as simple as tweaking numbers.

The issue is that there is no incentive to use cloth over plate. Most builds that you see online default to either Mesh or Plate. The incentives are obviously skewed.

3 Likes
8

I actually prefer the medium roll over light roll :sweat_smile:

For those that tend to run cloth/leather are the ones that could also likely go without armor as they focus on not getting hit like you said. The tweaks I think should aim at making those two edge groups feel more open to experimenting with the other side of things.

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Ofc there is, low investment light roll and most importand aspect - fashion.
No need to reinvent the wheel. I dont remember havin head wraps equiped in elden ring cuz i needed it…its cuz of fashion, that simple.

10

This I can agree with.

For T3 Mesh gear you have a weight of 150. To be able to Light Roll you need at least 429 capacity. So you need to spend 26 attribute points.

Now, if you use feathers and other stuff to bring down the weight from 150 to 100. You only need to spend 12 attribute points.

Fashion is outside the scope of the argument since it is about the stats of the items.

And I wouldn’t say it is reinventing the wheel but, rather making sure we have a wheel to begin with.

1 Like
11

But Wicked has Enchanted Gear with Stats.

Thats why Crafting recipes are awful in this game. A nice fashion set but after enchanting maybe the wrong stats and garbage. Without mass producing useless.

1 Like
12

Enchanting needs more Customization elements and white gear needs to be less scarce in general.

13

I like the direction of these. Armor bases already have some intrinsic stats to them in ARPGs so this isn’t absurd or anything. The only one I’m “iffy” on is Plate offering armor since you’ve usually hit cap by that point but the general idea is great. None of it is enforcing a class and is more generic. For example, realistically it makes sense for the lightest armor to give a movement speed buff.

14

If you can make a two-handed weapon suddenly function like dual daggers you’ve defeated the point of weapon classes in the first place. That’s exactly what’s happening with equip load as far as I can tell.

Reality is it’s fairly easy with the affixes to get to to Normal load wearing full plate by only putting 13 points into equip load and i’m sure with feather gems it goes down even more and if you get pieces with all load or equip weight reduction you’re looking at the sub 10 point department. That’s way too low of a requirement.

I dont think there should be a scenario where you are using full plate and are running around like you’re wearing underwear. It defeats the purpose of having weight load classes in the first place. The player should choose to either be Conan the barbarian in cloth or any knight from the movie Excalibur. Too much of having your cake and eating it too. Or perhaps have some other penalties associated with wearing X amount of plate pieces. Stamina use, speed bonuses or negatives, focus regen could all be factors altered by your armor type.

15

Throw Blink on a torch, shield, bow or pet goat and you won’t even care what your weapon load is…

16

This is why the Cerim Armor feels so bad ;-; You get 1 chance and hope 4/4 pieces are usable rolls…

17

Good point, hadn’t even thought about blink.

There are so many factors that made Equip Load less meaningful. You essentially negate the entire down side of Plate and Mesh with the following:

  • Feathers with custom enchanting

  • Equip Load increase affixes

  • Equip Load ring

  • Blink rune

This is one part of the issue, however.

The other one being not enough incentive for lighter armor types. There needs to be a bigger trade off.

18

I think if the ways to regain Focus are properly balanced and reined in then Blink will be fine. It’s the fact that it’s very easy to abuse its low cost that creates issues.

I do agree with the rest though. I understand why they made the multiple areas to reduce weight. They’re really going for the “play how you want” vibe. It’s great but this may be too much in that direction.

19

There’s a difference between play how you want with drawbacks and play how you want without any drawbacks.

Right now we have the latter. Every decision should matter. Not just ‘find the work around so nothing matters’. It’s not a game then. It’s just a stupid puzzle you can look up on the internet for the answer.

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I do agree. It’s also why I’m an advocate for making new cursed enchantments. The current ones are only stat decreases generally, not gameplay altering effects. As I always say, great foundation that just needs to be realized.