UPDATE: Poll Results, Analysis & Discussion: Plate is Overpowered

Wicked Feedback
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21

The more I think about it the more I think Weapon load (the stat that increases how much you can carry) should go away.

Full Cloth armor should put you in light load class and provide more focus regen, less stamina use, more speed but little armor, poise and knockback protection.

Full Plate armor should put you in heavy load class and provide: less focus regen, require more stamina to walk around in and less speed but much more armor, more poise and more knockback reduction.

The rest of the armor pieces should go somewhere in between.

There should be no affixes that can adjust this. You could have affixes that provide more stamina, more focus, more speed etc but the fundamental weight classes should not be changed. Speed, Stamina use, Armor, poise and knockback resistance are FUNDAMENTAL to weight armor classes. Don’t break your own system!

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22

i voted stronger because definitely can take more hits with plate than cloth armor but is it better? i dont know.

23

I literally just mentioned this in a post I made 10 minutes ago before I seen this lol.

My suggestion is to give higher values to affix’s on certain armor types and add specific affixes to certain armor types

Cloth- can have higher % on all Focus affix’s, affix for rune damage, affix for additional intelligence or faith (example adds 3 to intelligence), higher percentage for speed affixes

Leather- can have higher % on all stamina affixes, damage for Stamina using attacks affix, affix for additional dex, higher percentage for speed affixs

Mesh- can have affix for additional strength and faith. Healing affects affixs, charged attacks affixs.

Plate- can have affix for additional strength, thorns damage affix, melee damage affix’s

Of course you can get any stat still on any armor the above listed per category will just be higher then That you can get on different categories

Edit: you might want to read rest of my post to understand why someone might want to use leather for more stamina.

24

It is up to you to decide what is better, there are no wrongs.

Plate has higher Armor, Poise but also weighs more.

Cloth has lower Armor, Poise but weighs less.

It’s up to you to decide what you value more. Hope this helps maybe organize your thoughts more.

Remember you can always change your vote if you are uncertain.

26

I don’t believe that plate armor is stronger than other options; it simply creates and facilitates a specific playstyle while inhibiting others.
The weight factor seemed to be overlooked in this post, as if nobody plays with a light load, which is okay, but I feel the need to highlight how playing with a light load makes traveling through maps faster and how, in general, quick dodging are better in terms of survival and sustainability.
For the current combat system, a light load allows you to engage in combat for much longer without being depleted in terms of healing items and consumables, since the mobility offered by a light load enables you to easily enter and exit the attack range of all enemies.
Regarding affixes and rings that favor those in heavy armor, I would like to point out that this is currently a rather moot point since it’s clear that many options for enchantments, infusions, and equipment (in terms of rings) are still missing. By this, I mean that a character who seeks and relies on these tools to reduce their investment in carried load will necessarily forego other enhancements that someone with a lighter load could utilize.

Anyway, if there needs to be an incentive for players to try different playstyles other than medium-heavy load, I would suggest an increased stamina consumption for medium and heavy loads on every action. For example, a (+5% stamina consumption for medium load which becomes a +10% for heavy load).

27

I disagree with the weight factor being overlooked in the post. As I cover it quite extensively.

However, I agree with you that I have not mentioned a Light Load as much in the post. I mostly ignored this since, when I was doing the math for a Normal Load. It seemed that wearing Plate and having a Light Load, would be too taxing. So I skimmed over it.

But, you are right! I’ll add those calculations.

Also, I don’t think penalizing heavier armor creates incentive to wear cloth. People will find more ways to make those penalties less effective. I feel like their needs to be an actual reason to wear cloth over plate. Cloth needs to have X, and X needs to diminish in value as you wear heavier armor.

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28

Maybe it was me but I just didnt see really any benefit of a light load? I don’t have a problem moving around the map or in combat with a normal load. Perhaps the speed differences need to be more exaggerated.

Also agree with Stamina consumption, I suggested that in another thread. Stamina feels unimportant currently. Minimal points is all that may be needed, if at all depending on the weapon.

29

I posted the poll results, as I closed the poll earlier since we didn’t get any new responses for some days.

I gave a very basic interpretation as I think that is all that is required. And, I kinda want people to see for themselves what the results are.

30

Conclusion

Based upon the data from the poll:

  • Out of the 45 people who voted, 71% thinks Plate is either overpowered or stronger when compared to Cloth

  • Out of the 42 people who voted, 74% wear, primarily, either Plate or Mesh armor.

  • When comparing Plate to Cloth the data does NOT resemble a Normal Distribution but is Skewed to the Right instead.

  • When comparing the Armor Type Primarily Worn the data does NOT resemble a Uniform Distribution but is Skewed to the Right instead.

We can conclude that there is too much incentive to wear plate over cloth.

Solution

Add an additional Stat to armor that incentivizes: Cloth > Leather > Mesh > Plate, to counter the current favoritism of Plate > Mesh > Leather > Cloth.

31

There is, but you probably shouldn’t have titled the post “Plate is Overpowered”. That’s cueing readers to give a specific response.

32

Not really since the title and poll are separate.

The title is a statement and, the question in the poll isn’t loaded.

Furthermore, the second poll question acts as a control variable. We can see clear overlap between both questions since both data skew to the right. Therefore, we can assume, without relying on statistics, that voters have not been ‘‘pushed’’ in a certain direction.

33

Any type of leading statement is still a push. It was unnecessary.

34

Again, there is no leading question in the poll.

35

Sure. But there is a very suggestive statement in the title. Claiming the title and the poll - which appear together, by the way - are separate is a sign that you’re not really approaching this discussion in good faith. The title quite clearly primes people to have “plate is overpowered” in their mind by the time they reach the poll.

I don’t even disagree with you. I think plate is overpowered. But I wish you had let the poll speak for itself.

36

Coming from a bit of a research background, the title would lead to the potential to get the results dismissed. Does it matter much in this situation? Not really, but it is something to consider. Other options that would have been more neutral though:

  • “The state of armor classes in NRftW”
  • “Light vs Heavy armors”
  • “The balance between armors”

etc etc.

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37

I’d like to kindly remind the both of you that we are on a gaming forum. This is not someone’s research proposal, bachelor thesis, master thesis or God forbid a research done by a PhD candidate. I strongly believe that this level of nitpicking is unwarranted for a poll on a gaming forum.

Can the title have had an effect of the voting behavior. Sure, however, there are other elements that could have indirectly contributed to this as well. The fact that it is an contemporary issue, can skew voting behavior. The analysis after the poll, which people could have read before answering the post. Now does this matter, most likely not since it is not a direct effect as suggested. But, an indirect effect.

I have a research background myself. And, I think the poll is sufficient for a poll on a gaming forum:

  • Distinctive and exhaustive answer categories.
  • No leading or double barrelled questions.
  • At least an N of 30.

I’m sure I forgot something.

I even added a control variable as a control measure. Now should I have added more control variables? Probably, what if people wear plate because of the visuals not because of the stats. What if people vote on to poll but are not qualified to answer. We generally want to add as many control variables as are relevant.

But, if I’m going to add so many questions for a simple poll on a gaming forum, we won’t even reach a minimum of 30 votes. This is not a questionnaire we sent out en masse to gather as much data as possible and as accurately as possible.

I’m also not going to add a proper research problem, relevance of the research, theoretical background, methodological framework (research design, data collection, data analysis, sample strategy, research quality indicators). If you read the post you realize there are limitations to it. But, even if it has that structure people won’t bother to read that much text. We are not in a university, the target audience is gamers.

I don’t treat this as a research, but as a poll on a gaming forum. And, I’d request the same from you. To me it seems very disingenuous to gloss over me hinting at the fact that there might have been leading elements, but, that they are dissuaded by the control variable. You could have responded to that, but, choose not to. I understand that there are limitations, but, they don’t matter as much in this context.

As for the title leading to the results being dismissed. This is quite an unfair statement which you already admit yourself. I see where you are coming from, but even then, would we see such a draft in a university setting; I think not. Therefore, it is unfair to treat it as such.

The title could have been neutral, but again, I don’t think it would have mattered as much. As we can see with the control variable at a glance. I think using actual descriptive statistics and such to verify, might be a bit much in this case. Especially considering the audience.

That is all I have to say on the matter. I do sincerely hope we don’t continue this discussion. But instead, start talking about working out the solution for the issue.

Namely:

An additional stat for armor that incentivizes: Cloth > Leather > Mesh > Plate

Feel free to leave any suggestions for what that additional stat could be.

Personally, I consider affixes relative to armor types not to be a solution as it doesn’t address the skewed nature of armor in it’s current state. But, could be an addition later on.

38

had a whole 40 line thing going but then i realized i hadn’t read half of the entire discussion… pain.

anyways, independently from the title, i find heavy armor not to be overpowered as much as “oversafe”.
to me something overpowered is the type of edge that you can gain in battle that makes an enemy’s effort of defeating you near worthless.
meanwhile with my funny neologism “oversafe” i want to indicate something that while not gamebreaking in balance, reduces the user’s engagement level, by making the player require so little focus over the game that it disables any overall engagement.
the shifts in pressure from enemy oppression to you getting the edge over the enemy fade, which create that “ohgodohgodohgod YEAAAH NOW ITS MY TURN” feeling fall a bit flat the moment you wear overly protective armor.
im curious to see how this will work with the talent tree replacing the attribute system, but for now i’d say that it is quite anti engagement to wear plate. but i think tat the game’s design intention of tieing together weight and armor class by offering different advantages to different armor levels is a very healthy direction. if only the heavy roll had a bit more going for it than a widdle boy shove.
you get where im going though. i’ll be concise with this post :slightly_smiling_face:

39

A little much to give a paper’s length response and then just say that’s it no more? I think @laki and I were just suggesting ways in which this poll could have been done slightly differently to make sure we are providing the best feedback possible to both the community and the developers.

I apologize if you took the suggestion as a personal attack, as again it was a rather small suggestion for future polls.

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40

You quote me above and then misconstrue what I imply, that is disingenuous.

People are welcome to come up with suggestions, but do so in a constructive manner and out of good faith. Not for the sake of just wanting to critique with critique that is disproportional to the setting.

I don’t see them as a personal attack, but, rather think that both of you just want to argue out of bad faith. I wouldn’t have had an issue with your suggestion if you hadn’t followed it up with implying that results can get dismissed; which is a very detached argument. And, @laki could have made his suggestions in a less combative manner.

There is also no acknowledgement or response to what I specifically typed, my arguments. That is all I need to know, since it just confirms that it’s a discussion out of bad faith.

I offered an olive branch, you chose to refuse it, now I am done with this discussion.

Goodbye.

41

I think they tried to balance plate around making it harder to achieve a normal/light load. You see this with how increased attribute investments into equip load are required. So I agree with you that this is already a healthy direction, if I understood you correctly.

However, the only incentive to wear cloth over plate is the weight. And, by extension making it easier to have a light/normal load. I don’t think this is enough incentive as 74% of people wear either plate or mesh.

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