then i will link your post there, pushing those older topics up again and referring here as well.
I will add a post of mine that I think builds upon this, well the first part does:
I still believe my post above and that the following solutions would solve the issue:
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Runes have Short (6-12 seconds) Cooldowns and deal less damage ā promotes reactive combat (similar to a dance, you do A I do B, you do C I do D).
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Cooldowns are shared between weapons (Rune Slot 1, 2, 3 & 4) ā prevents weapon swapping to spam.
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Focus will serve a different purpose rather than being a resource ā no more competition between runes, time is the only resource it needs.
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Runes shouldnāt be just finishers but become an extension of our kit ā enable for players to create their own playstyle around multiple runes rather than 1 rune for all. Think of how MMORPGs or Mobaās play, the class/character/hero comes together as a whole due to the various abilities.
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Incentivize mechanical useage of runes ā dodge runes, reflect runes, etc. Make runes be used as a response or reaction to a situation. It depending on a resource like focus will feel counterintuitive and will lead to player creating a focus-neutral state regardless. It feels bad if you want to use Rune A but canāt due to focus limitations if you focus on reactivity.
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Rune customization ā add certain effects for further customization. Let players interact with the runes and create something cool. HP shield after rune use, a cleanse, multiple charges of the rune, enhancing the next X basic attacks, etc.
i agree with pretty much everything except this. i understand focus to be this games version of mana. just waiting out a timer without any additional cost seems to me, like it would render focus useless and also prevent mage or paladin built RP.
i feel like runes are basically our spells (when speaking about staffs for example). i would not like a diablo-esce approach of waiting a timer to press 1 then wait a timer to press 2 etc.
but generally a timer fits. we have cooldowns for food, so why not apply it to potions and runes as well?
and generally, i would also say, letās wait for the skill tree to drop. i am pretty sure there will be skills that diversify movesets. we have seen the greatsword kick slash. i can imagine things like that to be a skill rather than a rune, and keeping runes as āspellsā.
Really great topic. Let me add my 2.000.000 cent coin purse and lets have a chat.
Iāve addressed this topic before, but in a different way:
Basically my take is, to have distinct mechanics, each with their own merrits. If every skill has a good appeal, because of their distinct functionality, there is already enough reason to use it / see it get used. I donāt think the goal is for everyone to like every skill, but they should be viable and somewhat unique in functionality. A nuke skill should not ALSO provide huge stagger AND have a low windup AND have long range. Pretty difficult to make other skills shine thenā¦ 
Split the functionality more into categories, add more categories, buff/tweak them enough to make them attractive vs pure DPS and provide each in a more varied fashion. We can go a bit into more detail if youād like, but if they would focus on that (and that may simply require some number tweaking), Iām sure weād have a lot more varied playstyles and rune variety.
@Chemile0n Just a sidenote, as you were talking about it a lot; Maybe my PoV can help: Imo you SHOULD be able to use every Rune effectively against every enemy (when it comes to the dmg type). Otherwise there is always one dmg type better than everything else and overshadows the rest (think about Echoknight - If heās weak to something - guess what you will be using against him and are more likely to build around). Also you are restricting the players playstyle by forcing them to use different elements to do their damage ā LESS flexible Rune slots ā LESS actual variety not more. And LESS fun: Oh i want to play a plague build, yay! Oh the Echoknight is resistant to Plagueā¦ Guess I play something elseā¦ Or go play another game entirely, which does not screw me over. Sorry for the exxageration, but I hope this helps 
i feel you guys understand my suggestion too much as a all or nothing approach. which is not correct. i do not mean when an enemy is resistant to lightning, the lightning smash deals 0 dmg. more than you need a few attack combos plus the rune, because the enemy does not get 1-shot.
and i was referring to monster hunter for example, which basically is a boss kill game. when you fight monsters there that are weak to slash dmg u do not only play slash, because others are weak against elements or require other tactics entirely. there is no game where i have more variety in my loadouts and skills than in monster hunter.
and games like dark souls do the weakness/resistance pretty well. you do not only play dark souls 3 with poison because demon prince is weak to it. you apply poison resin for that one fight whereas u use lightning against soul of cinder etc.
in baldurs gate you built your party around skills and weakness as well, which makes playing it different with each party setup or each different leveled skill/spell etc.
and echo knight isnāt everything. it might be now for late game, but that does not mean that something that works against him will also work against other bosses. right now we exactly have what you describe. we build around EK and rune spam, because it melts him. so we rush through the game with 1 thing in mind: Rune X and focus max for EK. no variety in any way. it does not matter, because right now, what works against EK works against everything.
using knowledge about enemies or the environment is not incentivized.
using daggers for more crit dmg does not work, because there is no such thing.
being smart about your 2hander with attack speed buffs and more poise break isnāt a thing, because it does not work etc.
Edit: and also it does not matter of u infuse your weapon with gems, that give it elemental dmg, because the element does not matter. just use raw dmg gems and u are fine. everything else is a waste. we have the option to infuse elements, but they just donāt matter.
what works 100% is either 1-shot runes for everything or crazy life drain builds where u basically never die.
I get what you mean. Doesnāt change the fact, that resistances streamline builds instead of resulting in the interesting kind of variety, that leads to mechanical distinction. Donāt know about Monster Hunter, but in both Baldurs Gate and Dark Souls 3, they reduced build variety for me and added tedium. Same reason, I donāt find Monster Hunter appealing in the first place i guess.
Solving how to build your character by X numbers wise is just not fun variety to me, its boring actually. Especially when it leads you to using the most basic dmg type and combining it with the right consumable. Or hotswapping to the right weapon to counter.
We could use some more mechanical distinction between enemies and our own abilities though. That would at least heavily encourage more utility Runes.
Of course people will use the hardest boss as a benchmark and play whatever has the most advantages against them. If its multiple, we get multiple benchmarks and the most attractive build will be one that has the edge on all of them, which again means EVEN LESS variety. Or one build for every boss, which is even worse, now we got no variety, no inventory space and added tedium.
NOW we are talking mechanics. 
- You should be able to use the knowledge about enemies and the environment against them. You can even exploit an elementary weakness, if it is NOT a numbers solution (e.g. enemies weak to fire start panicking). That would be great to see.
- Critting with daggers and more backstabs should totally be a thing!
- Poise Breaking with attack speed boosted Two-Handers should also be a thing!
- Elemental types should matter! Imo they should make an interesting, mechanical difference! E.g. want Dots & max Dmg? Use fire. Want SLOW enemy weakness and drain? Use plague. Want SHORT Interrupts, high variance and reactive gameplay? Use Lightning. Want to slowly STACK frost and finish with Breaker Combos? Use Ice. Want a generic, LOWER dmg increase or more physical oomph? Use physical.
- As I said before: Nukes should NOT also be fast, NOT also stagger and NOT also replenish ressources, otherwise variety is heavily discouraged. Not saying that Nuke builds and crazy lifedrain builds should not work. Saying that Backstab builds, Poise Break builds and Status Builds should work as well, ideally to similar effect.
A little late to the party and, well yes, I did skip some posts 
Some thoughts:
For me changing between the skills is too fiddly within a hectic fight with the current inputs. For that reason I usually stay at one skill for a fight. (same for food/usables btw.)
RN we are limited to 2 or 4 runes, i.e. 2 or 4 skills besides āregularā abilities. One has to decide if one uses the rare slots for āactiveā skills or for āsupportā. That means if one wants to make a mage build, one would do hell before sacrificing the rare slots for support skills.
Maybe secondary traits on runes would be a way to encourage the use of different ones. Imagine passive traits on each runeā¦ an example after using rune X: āThe next time an enemy is blocked, it staggers.ā, or āIf you recieve damage in the next 2 seconds, your rune damage is increased by x% for the next rune activation.ā
That would lead to rune activations building up on each other.
Since i read it and it triggered me
Most of those are good, butā¦
I really really dislike cooldowns. Imagine a fixed cooldown on the normal attack, so you do not spam itā¦ that would be nothing else but annoyingā¦ this is how i see cooldowns for a mage bulild. There are so much more elegant ways to achieve a better result than a cooldown.
Read the entire thread and I just want to make a very short concise point on why I and the others are disagreeing with you. Mainly you are really stuck on elements and resistances which misses the point @Azuresh & @RomoloHero are trying to make of movesets. The āfireā part of fire throw isnāt the problem, the āthrowā part is. It really does not matter what dynamism you add if we can carry 4 elemental versions of āthrowā and whether theyāre slashing or blunt damage is based off the weapon you insert it into. That still leads to you only needing 8 weapons throughout the game. 4 swords with a throw each & 4 hammers with a throw each.
I agree that buffing a lot of other mechanics will make the game more fun & viable to people willing to experiment but Iām not convinced that fixes the throw solution.
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We need better and more Shortcuts. There are lotās of options, even for the controller: Button combinations, selection wheels, tap vs doubletap vs press vs hold, sequencesā¦ I am just tired of āsimpleā, predetermined controller schemes ruining shortcuts for everyone.
Like that idea, but I think i expressed that before.
For me that would be mechanical distinctions like windup time, effect and dps. Assign ārolesā to different Runes that are non-universal.
But I could also live with CDās and with having some Basic Attack alternatives, especially for Mages. Not all Runes should have a CD, is what I am saying.
One way to eliminate rune spam is either to remove the āgain Focus on damage dealtā enchantment or make so that rune powers do not generate Focus by any means. It already works like that for the base Focus gain stat that is found on the weapons.
The reason Lightning Assault deals so much damage is because it seems like enemies have lower elemental resistances so that pure elemental attacks seem more effective.
All in all runes need the most balancing atm. There is a great number of runes in the game and there are cases where runes are way too similar to make them stand out.
There is a rune called Piercing Dash: it is a lunge with a 400% damage attack; then there is Fierce Dash that uses the same animation, the same rune cost and deals the same damage, but it also has a guaranteed ministun - this makes this rune infinitely better.
There are also many runes which are borderline garbage: Whirlwind or Multispin come to mind, just like all their elemental derivatives. Crushing Dodge is trash of the highest order!
I would be OK with less runes, if every rune has a place or a playstyle. Furthermore, I think the ability to slot any rune into any weapon with only current class limitations comes at the expense of weapon identity.
I am stricktly against the suggestion to implement cooldowns for runes.
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That and enchanting.
I also agree that we can manage with less runes as long as the runes themselves have distinct mechanical advantages that are incentivized.
The one thing that has to be decided before all that however is the following ā Endgame: ARPG or Soulslike
Iām not looking for another discussion about this, but, most of us offering solutions are looking at it from different perspectives. Iām in favor for cooldowns due to me preferring combat in MMORPGs/Soulslikeās/CRPGs. I want the more tactical elements and believe cooldowns help in that regard. From most discussions I have held most people opposed to cooldowns want combat to feel more like an ARPG and unload all their focus onto the boss. They dislike cooldowns for that reason, same with mage players etc.
Both perspectives are valid, we just need to know what it will be for Wicked.
Soulslike, the combat is not diablo, no hordes of enemies. The enemies are weak outside the crucible because we overleveled the areas we have access to, im pretty sure nobody will stick around after the twins are dead killing the same enemies on the beach, after that boss we will move on to Marin Woods i presume, on the full release that is.
I agree with you, simple solution to rune spamming is a cooldown shared by every weapon you have equipped, universal so to speak.
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Souls games have no cooldowns iirc. Cooldwones are an ARPG stick because you do not have an extended move set at base, so that in order to not spam 1 skill over and over (which is still common) you go through a rotation.
Wickedās combat is closer to souls. If Focus gain on damage is fixed the way I suggest, spam strategies used today wonāt work anymore and player would be left with only a few rune uses being possible back to back. In such an environment cooldowns, especially global ones, are unnecessary.
Your missing the point that I am trying to make with regards to endgame:
Soulslike ā Tactical Combat ā Tactical 1v1ās similar to the start of the game
ARPG (Diablo-like) ā Button Mashing Power Fantasy ā Rune or auto-attack spam deleting mobs and overriding their mechanics
Cooldowns are more associated with RPGs yes, thatās not the point. Cooldowns create tactical combat ā V Rising, WoW PvP, etc.
Wicked is not a Soulslike but the tactical elements of combat are there to the extent that it feels like a lovebaby between a Soulslike and an ARPG.
Even if Focus gain on damage/rune usage is done as you suggested it wonāt solve the overarching issues. Here are some:
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Meta Runes ā Competition between runes due to a shared resource: Focus
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Limited Reactive Combat ā Restricted due to having to build up focus to use dodge runes, aoe runes. You canāt respond dynamically to situations unless you have focus. Cooldowns are also limiting but less limiting if their cooldowns are āfairā relative to the combat.
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Focus Cap and Potions ā If you have enough focus capacity and enough focus potions you can still spam before fights. With the increased focus restoration of focus potions, +100 per tier. And, most runes costing 50 focus each. We can assume to keep spamming runes throughout combat if we chug high enough level focus potions. If we chug a 200 focus restore potion we can spam 4 more runes.
I have more on this subject:
And these discussions are a good read in general:
In Elden Ring you also one-shot cheap mobs later in the game or when you overlevel them, their mechanics become relevant again only in group encounters. Wicked works the same way.
Wickedās combat is close to souls since you have distinct attack movesets tied to a weapon and not attack skills like in a RPG. Furthermore in Wicked you have access to only a few runes at a time. The difference is: in an ARPG every action is tied to a skill, while in Wicked you mix mostly weapon moves with rune uses.
Cooldowns wonāt eliminate meta runes, the criteria will just be different.
I have different view on combat; runes are not reactive actions, but opportunistic ones. You do not need a rune to dodge an attack but you can use one in right situation.
Furthermore Focus allows the player to set the pace, since the more active you are the more options you will have. Focus as a resource rewards active/agressive playstyles. On the other hand, with cooldowns there is a high incentive to act off cooldown and be passive on cooldown.
In an open world a 10 second cooldown means one free rune attack on each encounter. This is very much rune spam all over again, which in return allows the player to skip enemy mechanics. Extend the cooldown and the player barrely gets to use a rune in a bossfight.
I would also say 100 Focus is the default rune cost, not 50.
Potions require an action where the player is not attacking or defending and this strategy is simply not sustainable in the long run. Potions are good as a kick-start, not so good as a reliable Focus source in a fight.
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I donāt think it will be a fruitful endeavor to engage with this as you are still missing the point I am making.
I will respond to some things however:
I prefer reactive actions since they include opportunistic actions but not the other way around.
Hard disagree, Focus and Focus gain currently set the pace for combat outside of auto attack builds. Focus is restrictive to combat unless, as you mention correctly, play super aggressive. Yet, that in turn overrides the core combat loop in my opinion.
I do believe we want the same but we have different viewpoints on it. Mine being more radical on the subject.
If you want to have a discussion about solutions to rune spam and focus I kindly invite you to have that discussion in this topic:
Suggestion: Runes & Focus Reworked
I donāt have cooldowns as a sole solution but as a solution in conjunction with 6 other solutions. If you want a discussion about my solutions on the matter we do it there. Since continuing the discussion here is a misrepresentation of my opinion on the matter.
My preferred solution is to encourage tactical/dynamic Runes in three steps:
- Give us a reason to use them
- Give us the opportunity to use them
- Reward us for using them
Ideas:
- Give enemies more interaction / stagger resiliance
- Give more downtimes in combat ā slow down the pace OR make utility Runes faster than offensive ones
- Make more Runes mechanically niche and make them strong in that niche so they serve an actual tactical purpose
Thoughts?
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