when they reply on discord everyone/anyone can see it. When they reply here to a post with constructive criticism hardly anyone will see it with how niche it is, but they do monitor here dw
Well the feedback area on discord points back to here so…um. Yeah.
Am I supposed to search through all of discord for the answer?
I would think if multiple questions or hot topics are coming up, that they could just post a sticky somewhere.
How i play:
I am a strategist, not an action guy (though some reflexes come from the choice of games).
Usually when solo play the two types of games pretty similarly. Pick a Build, stick with it, make it as good as it gets, beat the game with it. Try something new. So most of all I want variety, variety that works. But in any case I think a lot and plan ahead, so i prefer slower pacing. NRFTW could hit the sweet spot - Most ARPGs are too fast paced, most Souls Likes lack build variety.
If coop is involved i favor the play-style that makes the game as chill for the others as possible. I am the one who revives you, who tanks for you, has your back, wears all the utility gear that you have no space for in your pure dps build, who buffs you up and pulls everything together. So i would like some of these options. I think If you want to go compete go Solo, give us enjoyable, pro teamwork abilities. This again would require slower pacing (more chill), and some more flexible support style options, than given in most Souls Likes (if they have any).
Playthrough with second Character
For me the second playthrough felt perfect. tried something new, got rewarded for learning, but the Combat still felt methodical. Really loved it (first char mage, second char shield/mace). The third char was a ranged squishy rogue… I struggled hard, very hard until i got Cone Shot and Focus on Hit and afterwards the Game was easy. Finished it at a lower level (13).
→ simple balance/bugfix issue, remove Focus on Hit, make ranged more viable and fix targeting
Stance on Meta Builds
Imo its fine to have meta builds. Ideally they should not be broken good (like 10 times the dmg), but can be clearly stronger.
I want many different builds that work, not every build needs to be the fastest. Ideally the fastest builds are the hardest to play and with the least utility, and the slowest builds have some utility that makes them unique and maybe just maybe they are just right for your playstyle.
Most of the issues I’m seeing mentioned here are really just balancing problems that all stem from how focus is currently implemented. As someone else already mentioned, adding cooldowns to the more powerful rune abilities and/or getting rid of focus regen (at least significantly nerfing it) would fix a lot of the issues with combat feeling very different in the endgame. So instead of just spamming whatever OP ability you’re currently using (there’s plenty to choose from), you have a cooldown on top of having to go back to regular attacks to build up your focus meter again.
tldr; making rune abilities less spammy will force players to interact with the base combat even in endgame content.
Baldthazar, I understand Wicked is in EA and things will change. That’s why were having these conversations.
I agree that learning an interesting combat system with dodges and parries only to have those mechanics tossed out a handful of hours later as your build starts to come online doesn’t feel great. However, I also think that players that love the game and want to invest tens or hundreds of hours perfecting their character should be rewarded for that grind with a build that feels powerful. It seems to me that the frustration stems from not having enough time to appreciate the mechanics of the combat system before we transition into the more ARPG portion of the game.
You’re quantifying the first part but not the second. You agree the issue of gear growth tossing out mechanics is bad, but you try to play both sides by then saying a character should feel powerful. What do you mean by powerful, here? I can feel very powerful by holding a button and killing everything without looking at the screen (exaggeration), but that’s not what we want. It sounds like you’re confusing the game becoming easier (and the dopamine hit that gives) with becoming more skillful to overcome a foe.
It seems to me that the frustration stems from not having enough time to appreciate the mechanics of the combat system before we transition into the more ARPG portion of the game.
This is exactly what I do not want. And you are conflating potential unintended results as a feature. Are you suggesting the game is supposed to play like a Souls game then later like a typical ARPG? Where have the devs stated this? Why is this a good thing? Does this make sense anywhere else? Should an FPS morph into Tetris? (Exaggerated for illustration)
Yes, Diablo is popular, but I don’t want another Diablo. Part of the pitch of the game is that the combat will have more “animation based” system, that is to say, more emphasis on fundamentals of combat.
On Elden Ring. I probably have more hours in it than anyone else here. I’m a big fan. But the game has flaws. It’s not a special feature that you can go back to an early area and kill a boss in 2 hits or whatever. That’s simply an artifact of how the numbers scale and the fact that game is… for lack of better words, too open. These bosses are designed to be fought roughly when you are in their area. That is to say, a boss in area 1 is tuned to be fought when you are in area 1, not when you’re in area 25 and coming back to area 1.
And I stand by my Wicked critique for Elden Ring as well. (I don’t really want to get into specifics at this point because this is a whole other conversation.)
Finally, popular doesn’t mean good. I feel I’ve quantified my side. I listed out what the game offers, how it looses it, and why that’s bad. I don’t feel you’ve quantified your (nebulous) position. Remember, if Ford gave what the masses wanted, they would have faster horses and not cars.
Most of the issues I’m seeing mentioned here are really just balancing problems that all stem from how focus is currently implemented.
Agreed. These concerns are easily fixed with tuning values. It’s just important to note that while the change is simple the results is very divergent. There’s 2 camps of people here and I don’t think that you can totally bridge the gap. Wicked devs will have to choose to honor their own combat system or nuke it with shallow gameplay. I can’t think of a game that successfully pulls off both at the same time.
I have actually been having this discussion with the wife and came here to finally post about it but saw yours! Glad someone else has this in mind lol.
So, to the point, I agree in that I feel like they need to choose a demographic, or a direction to focus on. If they aim to appease both the Diablo and Souls-like fan base, I wish them luck and hope that it will work out as they intend. I think it could, but it’s likely going to be very hard to nail down, and even then, both audiences likely won’t be completely satisfied. Sort of feels like they need to choose a direction.
There’s been tons of community input on what to change/add/fix, etc., but other than fixes, most of the input doesn’t really mean much until an identity gets figured out. It’ll really be important once PvP gets implemented as well. Unless of course the choice is to appease both, at which point just keep going and see what they can do to create balance.
I bought the game because it seemed like a fusion between soulslikes, ARPGs and CRPGs.
I dislike either as standalone’s. Soulslikes, for me, lack immersive elements and attachment. ARPGs turn into a trash mob farming simulator which I don’t like.
Games with tactical combat is what I almost exclusively play. And, this game seemed to tick a lot of boxes of what I like. Mostly the immersive elements, graphics, story and the combat just looked really enticing. Also the mentioning of a talent tree got me really excited. Really hope we have a lot of build variety and that it is extremely in depth.
I like the tactical elements of combat where you respond to your enemy and it becomes this dance almost. Now, as we progress through the game, for the most part the soulslike elements stay in place. There are a few issues with stagger and focus that have been mentioned so much it’s like beating a dead horse.
If we can live out our power fantasy against the mobs, I’m fine with that. But, for bosses I’d like it if we have to adhere to their mechanics. And, if we build our characters smart/well enough we can maybe ignore a mechanic or 2; not ignoring most mechanics.
If they are aiming for a talent tree with affixes, meta builds will become unavoidable. Not, necessarily a bad thing. But, variation should still exist. It makes sense if 2h players start with the same talents/affixes. Yet, there should be room to differentiate later in the build.
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Soulslikes, for me, lack immersive elements and attachment.
I’m curious what is an immersive element? Can you give a few examples? And Souls games are not immersive as compared to what, exactly?
This feels like the discussion has become circular but I’ll still voice my thoughts. Others here have already pointed this out but a lot of the issue with Souls vs. Diablo is stemming from the imbalance of Runes and the “X on Damage Dealt” enchantments, meaning it’s less of a core issue and more a numbers issue. There is also the issue of an adequate test to push our builds to their limits, which will also be addressed in due time.
There have also been games that attempted something similar, like Monster Hunter World. It has the more tactical combat but Iceborne brought a lot to the table for builds in a Monster Hunter game. It even has ways to support your team which Wicked also wants to do!
There’s nothing wrong with still voicing thoughts on the current status of Wicked but a lot of this discussion boils down to simple balance issues.
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Sure.
Immersive elements are techniques/elements that make the person playing the game feel like they are their character and are there, in that alternative world.
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an extensive character creator with options to customize appearance starting build
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in depth dialogues which offer choices that have consequences
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a narrative driven game through which the protagonist moves and is at the center of
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the world changes based upon our actions
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meeting and interacting with npc’s, companions, antagonists and potential love interests
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upgradable/interactive systems such as housing, kingdom development, crafting, etc.
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the ability to roleplay and build various classes/backgrounds and combinations
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rewarding exploration
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engaging quests that change the world and have consequences for you, npc’s, companions etc.
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offering the player various roleplay opportunities that are irrelevant to the plot or story
To list a few.
CRPGs like: Warhammer Rogue Trader, Pathfinder Wrath of the Righteous, Baldur’s Gate 3, Pillars of Eternity 2", etc.
CRPGs focus on story and roleplay predominantly.
Edit: worded my thoughts a bit better
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Those are fair critiques. I don’t look heavily for most of that stuff as my priorities are: Combat/builds, atmosphere/exploration, and then lore, but I could understand why Souls games would fail you in these areas. Their lore is often very cryptic to boot.
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Yeah, you have to actively look for their lore.
Whereas, with CRPGs lore is thrown into your face whether you like it or not 
It’s almost like reading a book sometimes, I love that especially with Owlcat their games.
I enjoyed the game, but definitely enjoyed it less as it transitioned away from the souls combat to DPS check simulator. I could place limits on myself to keep it more souls like but the classic quote, ‘Given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game’, comes to mind.
It really does feel like two different games as you progress as opposed to a blending of both the whole way through.
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@_everyone
since ive discussed some of the feelings you just expressed already i will send you to this post i made a while ago, tell me your thoughts and if you agree/disagree
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Agreed. I like this DiabloSouls style combat… Praise the potato!
Maybe I am being too idealistic here, but I do think people here are down, when it comes to wicked „combat fundamentals“ as you call it.
And I also think, they are not exclusive with Diablo like progression (efficiency is the goal).
If increased character power results in EITHER the option to lessen the friction of combat fundamentals OR increased killspeed, people have a choice. A Choice, wether you want to play somewhat “mindlessly“ (and I mean somewhat, endless Ultimate Move Spam is an issue in ANY type of Game), OR you are efficient and fast - Reliant on superior mastery of the combat fundamentals.
NRFTW allows these nuances other Games simply don’t have. Why not lean into it?
The rest is as you said „a tuning of numbers“. Or choice of which mechanics you give the enemies to counterbalance.
Main Point:
I really don‘t think people want to play Diablo, when they play NRFTW. It already made that statement of being different. The game can be slower, with a higher entry and endgame Skill Ceiling.
But I also don‘t think the Git Gud aspect should gatekeep the game. There should be options to progress in (mostly less efficient) ways, without getting that good. Play in a group, use support abilities that take time, grind a bit, play a very defensive build, focus on one of the combat fundamentals and build around it, use Skills with less damage and more utility, …
I also don‘t think the „Diablo-Camp“ and the „Souls-Like-Camps“ truly exist in this conversation. There is just the „Hardcore Soulslike - Camp, that want the Game to be more Souls Like than Elden Ring“ (sorry it appears, that’s you), and the people that want Character power progression and play style variety. I think basically noone here thinks the Game should peak in endlessly spamming ultimate abilities.
If the Souls Like enthusiasts (and i count myself amongst them), settle for a somewhat lighter experience with more variety, there is a not too narrow middleground here…
Ideally we have this discussion every Patch (sorry Moon Studios) 
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I opened a topic with the exact same concerns 2 or 3 days after the initial release of the Early Access.
It is now one of the most viewed, replied, voted, liked topic on this platform:
Let’s be honest, now, I’m tired of this fight …
The main reason is that it’s a fight against Moon Studio’s direct will, not a fight against players perspectives.
We can push this forever and ever but it won’t come to an end before Moon Studio states clearly what they want to do and a later release confirms that they have committed to it.
And let’s be honest, when I see that they are trying to build a Skill Tree instead of fixing what is already implemented, it deepens my concerns.
I’m going to, voluntarily, make a confrontational statement here to make a specific point: I don’t think that they have a clear representation of what makes these genres, at their core, great and unique, in the first place.
And let me give them a clue: it is everything but pilling up features.
I said this earlier on my post:
"As a Diablo-like player, the injection of Souls-like game mechanics don’t affect negatively your experience.
But as a Souls-like player, if it is not carefully done, the injection of Diablo-like game mechanics can break my game."
I don’t think there is a clearer analysis for me.
I’ll add here an other thing that I said:
[…] That is why, when I initially opened this post, I said that this is not a technical issue.
No update/upgrade/rework/whatever of the resources/attributes/skills/whatever can solve that.It is a core game design philosophy issue: the development team needs to clarify and fully commit to what the intended experience is suppose to be.
And make sure that there is no current or additional feature breaking the initial promise.
So, the only thing we can do at this point is to make sure that we share precisely our experiences so Moon Studio can realize where and when it becomes problematic to us.
Vote, like, whatever, to get as much visibility as possible.
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Thought a lot about this topic and i think both sides are antagonists.
You can have both, but you cannot have both at full potential.
Each side has to sacrifice something.
Its a tiring never ending discussion.
Supporting the soulslikers would mean adding more content and challenging encounters.
Supporting the diablolikers would mean adding more toys expressing the different builds for the theorycrafters and synergyfinders 
And at the moment everybody is running a little dry. Soulslikers cannot add to much to all this discussions because they want to keep more of the initial gameplay not adding too much toys ontop. They just want more content but thats nothing you can discuss about. On the other hand you can discuss and make proposals about all the other stuff soulslikers dont want in the game. They are currently in a very unfavored spot.
Moon has very ambitious goals. Hopefully the dont overstrain. Would love to see this all-in-one game, but they have to make good tradeoffs to keep the quality. This game wants to be so much, and maintaining the quality of all this different aspects in the same way is a huge mountain to climb. Really hope they have the resources to keep track. Trying to satisfy everyone could also lead to many halfbaked unfinished implementations. We have to be really patient i guess.
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This resonates with what I said here.
I’ll copy-paste it here:
Even if it seems that I draw a very hard line of incompatibility between both genre, I think there is room for both existing in the same realm.
But the line is quite thin …
If I had to nuance my message now it would be: “Be very very careful with your design choices!!! You may loose both audiences !!!”
A main problem is that with 30 your Build is more or less maxed out.
Everyone has the Statpoints to make big Focus Plays or the “maximum” Number of Evade Rolls.
The system is build on sand.