Yeah, let’s conveniently omit how long it takes to farm the embers to make the perfect weapon and say it takes 10 mins to make the perfect weapon.
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i honestly feel its utterly dishonest for anyone to say it takes 10 minutes to make a “perfect” weapon.
in fact i feel disgusted that anyone would even say such a thing. finding the right item base. getting it “5 mod purple”. before you even begin crafting you’re already required to grind like mad.
when i wanted to min max different builds i found myself lacking embers. its pretty easy to run out of embers. to the point i actually didnt care to continue playing.
this game is in EA after all so i dont want to dedicate too much time on something that could get wiped or invalidated in the next patch.
and all the stuff i mentioned hasnt even touched farming materials from breach to maximize the item.
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Yes, it would be correct to say that “once you finish the game in the post game if you already have all the materials you need it takes 10 minutes just to roll the enchantments”,
and even then it is assumed that you heve a blue item where you want a blue item and a purple item where you want a purple item and that you are not unlucky with the rerolls, if not it can take you even more than 30 minutes (assuming you have all the materials ready and that you don’t run out of embers).
And in fact in “The RNG Problem, Enchantment System Vs Gem System (Refined)” I also complain about this unnecessarily tedious part of the process (when you have already obtained all the materials you need) which essentially takes away the joy of making a build.
If we add to this the double RNG element of finding embers in random quantities and burning a random amount of embers to Reroll, it becomes clear that making a Build in NRFTW is not a pleasant experience.
In this other post there was a discussion about What should be the appropriate difficulty of making a “perfect build” and this is my opinion:
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Let’s take a moment to discuss the new enchantment system that Thomas showed off on Discord.
Here is a description of the new system:
Enchantment Value:
T1 gear = lower rolls
T2 gear = closer to average
T3 gear = average or higher
T3+ gear = chance for really high rolls
Enchantment Count:
T1 gear = 1–2 enchantments
T2 gear = 2–3 enchantments
T3 gear = 3–4 enchantments (Purples)
Can be increased with Fallen Embers up to a cap
Disenchanting:
Resets item to white state Removes all enchantments & gems Item can be enchanted again
Enchanting Costs:
Scale heavily with item level & number/value of enchantments
Re-rolling:
Only 1 enchantment slot per item can be re-rolled (using Fallen Embers)
That chosen slot can be re-rolled infinitely, but others are locked
Exalting:
Items can be exalted up to 4 times (using Fallen Embers)
To exalt, an item must be “complete”:
Max gems
Max enchantments
Max upgrades
Once exalted: Gems & enchantments are locked (no more re-rolling) Item can still be disenchanted
Each exalt randomly selects one enchantment or gem and increases its value by 50%
Same slot can be chosen multiple times
In general, I understand why the developers are doing this. The item system in this game wants to be similar to Diablo/PoE. And honestly, I don’t see any problems with this. I played PoE and the enchantment changing functions are extremely limited there. Even taking this into account, it’s extremely interesting to knock out items and play.
The current system is too simple and allows you to get a powerful build without any effort. Which is incredibly nice for players, but it feels too simple and uninteresting. In my picture of the world, you need to try really hard to get the perfect item for your build.
There will also be trading in the game, which will work the same way as in PoE/Diablo. So it will be quite possible to get a good item. Those who are worried that the characters will become weaker - to complete the game, it is enough to have pumped up equipment and a couple of enchantments that suit the build. If you want to easily destroy strengthened bosses and clean the Crucible without Echo, then please try.
Questions arise about how exalting will work for rings and whether it will be possible to increase the properties of negative effects on purple items by 50%.
If exalting works for rings according to the same rules, then we will be able to get a Rune Ring with a 90% damage bonus?
If exalting works for negative effects, then we can get a 60% reduction in health, etc.?
There are many questions, we are waiting for answers and your thoughts on this matter.
In this game you just need to have a couple of stats that have a multiplicative effect on each other to get a very strong build (ex: Focus gain + Focus Cost reduced).
The change described by the devs doesn’t seem to indicate any nerf to me.
And honestly I would like it if they reduce some numbers given that at the moment if you make a minmaxed build you trivialize the game even in hard mode.
I strongly disagree with this, the reason being that I like to try different builds, and that also means trying them when they’re at their peak. If powering a weapon becomes a long process, that’s a big problem for me. I think it makes sense that the only the First Perfect Build you get is very difficult to obtain, but after the first one, if I want to change builds, it should be a quick process.
If you want to get just one perfect build in the current system, even if it’s not the best due to RNG, it’s actually simple.
But the moment you try to make multiple builds, it becomes terrible.
Which is the opposite of what it should be!
It should be hard to get your first perfect build and then the ones after that should be easy to get.
If you are interested, I’ve Already given My Opinion on the Changes Here:
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You can read this (link) post about different opinion to Thomas’s new system
@Art_G your post has been merged into this one for clarity and subject similarity. Feel free to discuss here further!
YES! Infinite RNG farming is the worst… POE2 and D4 are literal cancer. Give us control over our gear! Let us chase the perfect build! Its what kept me posted and eager to play this game.
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Just wanted to pop in and add my voice to the conversation.
Adding more RNG to the reroll system feels like it will have you hunting for items forever like you do in d4. Having to farm for embers kinda sucks obviously but having to hope for good RNG on your entire gear is gonna be miserable.
If the devs are dead set on this idea then please at least leave it as 1 permanent stat and the rest rerollable. Having to rng 4 stats for a specific build on plagued items is just gonna be too much farming I think.
The whole thing about this game compared to d4 is that while it doesn’t really explain much or how to optimize it is very enjoyable to tinker with your own gear and hope for the best instead of hoping for good RNG.
I know this probably is an idea coming from giving the gameplay loop more longevity but something like this will just make the game more grindy and less enjoyable. And since there is no subscription or micro transactions it doesn’t make sense to make the game more RNG based.
Loving the game btw, well worth the wait!
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The game itself currently is already addictive so ppl always wanna play more making things more rng based will not solve the replayability oppositely I don’t even wanna play now bc of this future plans and if they dont change the mindset I wont play after the update eighter.
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First, let me get a few things off my chest: the RNG system in the game right now is honestly pretty terrible. Putting numerical balance aside, just trying to randomly roll the enchantment affixes I actually want takes ages—and it’s infuriating.
The new enchantment system has two knock-on effects:
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Players will spend more time grinding on gear, which effectively drags out gameplay length;
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It’ll create new headaches for developers when balancing classes, weapons, and equipment down the line. By then, won’t players just have to wait another six months (or longer) for patches to fix class/gear balance? (If the devs already see this coming and have solutions ready, please ignore my rant above.)
My personal suggestion: Since the game will introduce a class system later, why not lock specific enchantment affixes to corresponding weapon/gear types? For example—mages don’t need “charge attack” enchantments at all, they are better suited for melee classes—so that affix could be fixed to a particular greatsword or some greatswords , or great hammers (staves excluded). The remaining affixes on weapons can still be RNG-based, letting players roll for them. This way:
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It leans into weapon/class identity,
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Reduces the grind/frustration of “gear gambling,”
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And maintains the freedom of gear building.
Nobody says current rolling system is perfect but the future plan is even worse that the current one.
Instead of locking rolling or making it class-spesific they must seperate each 5 enchantment slots into different tiers and each tear should have their own enchantment pool so you can roll those slots knowing the possibilities. Cuz’ now its like not about slots its about combinations which if you accidentally break the combination or dont know the limitations u just waste ur ambers by rerolling forever to get impossible combinations.
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It makes sense, but removing options even if they are strange options is still a bit sad, and there are some occasions where spells can work even for a class that normally wouldn’t use them, for example I had a spell to enhance the charged attacks on a staff with ice spells and I used it to break the ice, and even if it wasn’t optimal it was quite fun.
Class-specific buffs will still be introduced together with the class system, So I think it’s appropriate to keep the enchantments shared across all weapons as they are now, although since there are weapons that don’t have charged attacks it would make sense that these weapons couldn’t gain the enchantments that relate to charged attacks (although I would prefer all weapons to have a charged attack).
True, since the group is smaller, but it’s more of a work around than the real solution, and if new enchantments are introduced the problem returns.
This is very important, and to make sure that there is truly freedom of gear building, the system needs to be easier to understand and handle, without being clunky and tedious.
There is currently no way to know all the enchantments without checking on the internet, or spending a lot of time & resources searching and writing down every enchantment you find (and this is not a reliable method because the RNG, even on big samples, might still not show you some of the enchantments).
These are some of the main reasons why I wrote this topic: “The RNG Problem, Enchantment System Vs Gem System (Refined)” and I think the solution I proposed in the topic solves these problems well, if you’re interested please take a look (and if you read everything I’d be happy if you vote and leave a comment/response/criticism).
UPDATE
D4 now has just announced that they are reworking their enchantment system for the next season from rng-fest to selectable upgrades method. And imagine wicked still have no callback or any response about their coppy-cat crafting system from them. Sorry not sorry if I being so brutal but this is my honest feelings rn.
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i think i read this paragraph about 6 times now, and i am still not sure i understand your point here.
so some other game announces a system for influencing reroll of enchantments? ok
wicked already allows reroll of enchantments and if I understand right, rerolls are drawn from a specific pool depending on what you reroll. so you kind of already can influence it. sure enchantments, rerolls and crafting need work, but there have also been discussions for wicked for those things to change.
aside from all that, D4 is a full version, full price AAA game that just now after how long after release announces to change something. not entirely sure how that makes a fully independent project in early access look bad? at least that conclusion i read out of the tone of your post.
and why should any game currently in development compare to some arbitrary schedule of (insert random “relevant game here”)
what exactly do you mean by that? is it about some system that these games have in common? you can’t re-invent the wheel. when you develop an RPG you are bound to create mechanics that are similar to other RPGs. does that make it copy paste?
feedback is always appreciated, but in my very personal opinion it would help to elaborate what exactly the issue is between another games updates and wicked’s development.
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No one wants them to re-invent anything. Before the announcement they have had already a good system all they need to do is to add a proper farming/endgame content on top of it but now the one that they planning to convert is old fasion rng-fest system which even those AAA ones are appearently decided to step back and iprove more. So in brief my concern is that while they try to follow some footsteps it seems they starting to lose their path. Which takes apart wicked’s unique idetinty each step. I can see the possible future behind that..
well i think you still can’t really compare that. games that have been released for years already have their player base gone through all mechanics multiple times, and then further improve it to keep the game alive another dev-cycle until the next installment drops.
wicked is not comparable to that. and i am also pretty sure we will get a lot more improvements and endgame farming than we have now. so we can’t really say where this road goes. and even when we are on this road at some point i am also sure they will continue to work with our feedback.
so for me comparing it to some announcement from a unrelated game does not really raise any concerns. the rng loot drop system still works and pushes players dopamine even in other games that seemingly “change” that by adding more loot drop/farming mechanics
I too don’t care what D4 devs are doing, the game doesn’t interest me (I’m not saying it’s a bad game just that it has no appeal towards me). but it still makes sense to make comparisons, to argue. Even if they are not perfect, sometimes things are said that do not exactly correspond to what a person thinks but they give you the general picture.
I think that ( @QuthLue tell me if I understood correctly) the main message of QuthLue’s post (the way I interpreted it) was to point out that the developers of Dibilo, who are notoriously conservative (that is, they don’t want to bring changes and innovations so as not to lose the old players, and decide to keep old systems full of problems for years with minimal changes for fear that the players who don’t like the changes will abandon the game), even they have decided to change their system to abandon the RNG, and this is a very strong sign that the RNG in this system is problematic.
Essentially, as he said, he wrote the post based on his emotions and exaggerated a bit to emphasize them. So it makes more sense to focus on the general message rather than the details of the sentences. If we were to read the message from a rationalist point of view, I agree with what you said, but I think in this case it’s more appropriate not to do so, and look at the interpretation (which I wrote earlier).
There is no “issue” it’s just to say that in these two “similar” games these two similar systems both have a problem with the RNG (and we explained why in previous messages) and finally D4 is coming out of it, would be terrible if NRFTW came out of early access still carrying these problems with it.
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Exactly! And thank you to translate my “bad england” (lmao). Wicked must take lessons from those games rather than do the same.
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