Feedback on the current parry state

Wicked Feedback
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64

As said above, parring is an extremely satisfying mechanic, but is not worth using right now.

I would sugest the following changes:

  • Parry cause stance damage;
  • Trash mobs should have low stance bar (one succesfull parry stagger the enemy)
  • Elite mobs should have higher stance bar (3 succesfull parries to stagger the enemy)
  • Bosses should have even higher stance bar (5 or 6 consecutive succesfull parries to stagger)
  • Stagger should last longer to promote reliable punish (charge heavy attack or backstab)
  • 1 hit break the stagger effect
  • Lower weapon stance damage

Another interesting change would be heavy weapon does higher heavy attack damage but lower backstab damage; Small weapon does lower heavy attack damage but higher backstab damage.

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65

Heavy build and heavy weapon user, Unspoken and hc realm, playing around shield, parries, and shoulder bash - 280h+
Playing with parries is a steep learning curve in HC…

…that feels plenty rewarding: bad positioning AND still being alive is incredibly strong and satisfying as it is.
That being said, i feel like different weapon styles should allow different parries. Like a lot of you have pointed out, heavy and slow weapons can’t do much follow-up atm, which is perfectly fine against bosses or elite mobs, but is actually often, if not always, the case on every mob and feels like it shouldn’t;

My take is:
-The follow-up options need more variety with pluses and downsides attached to them, not to the parry mechanic itself.

-Parries should not give a window large enough to follow up with a backstab unless parrying with weapons intended to give you such opportunities (and which are harder to pull off).
(Which brings up the “wtf the backstab is way too overpowered and easy to spam”)

-Light dodge is fine early game since it comes with being 2-shotted as the price, but the actual late-game balance makes it overpowered, which is a problem of balancing OP builds/mechanics, not dodge or parries themselves. Slow roll makes the trade even, as it often only avoids the first of many incoming hits, meaning a parry/shield needs to follow up most of the time. This is a good thing to keep dodge as a panic button and not a spammable invincibility frame (spammable repositioning is fine if the cost is relevant).

-Parries need to remain hard to pull off, and not be rewarding in themselves more than they should.

…

I did not look at other builds before finishing the EA storyline, and did not see any problem with the current parry system other than it being too basic should it remain as is.
It felt right, limited in some cases but right; the issue seems to be elsewhere and/or in deeper mechanics.

(topic on “parry + runes” that would allow specific weapon types to have a specific follow-up option. Which could also be part of some weapon behavior, like the flurry unleashed on certain running attacks and others)

66

That would be nice

Would make the parries way to OP if heavy weapon can charge on each parries
Longer* could depend on the weapon used to parry ?

Would force parries into gameplay that should not rely on it.

67

I totally agree,

Parrying in itself is fine imo, and tweaking the parry too hard in one direction or another makes it detrimental to the balancing in general. The tweak should happen elsewhere, like in the enchant, the weapon used, the runes, and so on.

As someone who uses parry consistently, 100 would feel OP in the current build.
Even with 50 and little focus management, runes are spammable, and I’m far from playing meta things.
The “x focus on parry” in enchant or in similar approach is imo the way to play around that.

68

i’m a huge fan of this idea. this is how i build all my parry-focused characters. i’ve beaten a few bosses without striking - only with parrying. really satisfying.

that being said it’s true that parrying feels like it should enable you to do a charged weapon attack. with slower weapons it doesn’t give you enough time.

solution?

make parry stun scale based on your equipped weapon type and clear the stun upon receiving damage to avoid abuse

69

i’ve gone through this exact same process. i’ve:

  • made parry-oriented character
  • realised stacking damage and dodging is better value for money and easier
  • never parried again

then i realised i love parrying and had to simply build around that. the game’s balance at the moment doesn’t reward parrying. you have to create that balance yourself. i imagine when the game gets harder post v1 it will be more worthwhile to parry.

parrying also feeds runes PLENTY. you still need to add a few enchantments to parrying if you want it to be a proper engine. but in my opinion that’s fine, that’s what gear is for. i like gear enchantments to be specific/conditional. just adding +dmg% to everything is boring.

1 Like
70

The problem is they nerfed parry stagger so much that the mobs actually recovers faster from a parry than they do from you dodging behind them while they attack.

So it’s actually way riskier to follow up after a parry than to follow up after a dodge.

The other problem is parry does not work against multiple incoming enemy attacks while dodge does. If anything, a parry should grant either a short immunity window so you don’t eat a ton of damage and get staggered while in parry state from parrying one attack when many are coming.

Or parry should apply its stagger in an aoe radius so nearby mobs are staggered.

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71

Having god of war 4 flash backs. I don’t think I like this for NRFW. Parry doesn’t need to replace dodge.

72

Thanks for the reply!

The idea would be to only allow a clear open for a follow-up (charged heavy or backstab) on staggered enemies, so after 3-4 successful parries for elite and 5+ consecutive parries for bosses

I guess most mobs die from direct damage before stagger, but my suggestion is to make parries a more reliable way to stagger the enemy.

But i think that special runes that can only be activated after a successful parry a great idea!

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73

I would basically turn this game into sekiro if I could.

I loved the back and forth between attacking and parrying at increasingly absurd speeds in that game.

The obvious problem is people like different paces, and the OP says they not only want to use a slower weapon, but even a fully charged attack after parrying.

And I think we can have both.

Here’s 2 ways of doing it:

  1. Parrying has a built-in charge time, and when parrying fully charged, the recovery time from being parried is increased. This is more manageable, and even promotes interplay between dodging and parrying. (could also have added benefits such as improved parry window)

  2. You hold it and charge it, for similar effects to the above, but prevented from other actions in the meantime. This is clunkier, but has this benefit: Kinaesthetically, it feels weightier, especially if you slow the character down during the charge, and would match the twohanded fantasy. I’d also say this makes more sense than the shoulder check, and the mandatory weight requirement.

PS. Would like quicker recovery time for some animations as well as cancellable attacks when parrying for more of that sekiro feeling.

Alternatively, a obvious, more heavy-handed solution is to change the parry to fit the weapon. Then you can have the opening, and possibly a tighter timing. But that’s better than an easy timing, and no opening lol

74

That’s why i suggested reverting to previous version of the parry, which had much tighter window.

Parry should always default to heavy stagger, because stagger creates the necessary opportunity window for slower followups like charged attacks or runes with longer windups. Without that window, many heavier playstyles simply wouldn’t function properly.

That said, a faster, Sekiro-style parry system could be a really interesting addition. Ideally, it could be enabled through a specific item like a ring, that completely removes stagger(even the light one) from parries and shifts the mechanic toward a rapid, precision based style instead.

75

Only taking the focus value into account. Didn’t get to experience the old parry, sadly.
As you stated below, it seems they tweaked the parry the wrong way, or the “easy” way, which I think we agree would not be the best way to deal with the whole “follow-up” thing.
Weapon-specific parries, or layers of risk/reward as suggested a few minutes ago…
much interest in those topics.

Upvoting:

but

I think it should be weapon-based — a large claymore and a dagger should have different base parry impact values

Could have different parry to learn and chose which one apply to each weapon ? Like facet whitout rng

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76

It could be interesting, but I think that would be overkill. There are a shit ton of weapons in this game, that’s a lot of work and maintenance burden.

77

You might be right. Even if implemented by weapon category, it would still require to consider it every time new weapons are introduced.
I’d vote for adding parry runes in addition to the current one.

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78

if they code this like they’re supposed to and tie it to a single open variable: time - then we’re talking a single number tweak.

Testing what feels right might take time, but they can also change that later at any… time.

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79

Agree, the “might” was considering the soon-to-be reworked system which will imply variables I can’t yet take into consideration (can guess, but wait and see motto here).
Overall, categorizing weapon and base behavior does not sound like too much of a burden, yet they might push into “heavy knife” or lightweight two-handers like spears could be, to open build possibilities for which such “base behavior” would represent a hassle to balance. Still seems doable tho.

80

I see no reason why a 2H weapon should have a better parry thematically than a masterful monk using gauntlets, or even more pointedly a rapier master fulfilling a fencer fantasy.

It’s just a bad idea to make parry only satisfying and functional for some weapons and not others.

Parry should be designed in such a way that everyone wants to master it and use it progressively more frequently as it has a satisfying payoff to offset the risk.

In its current state it is overnerfed for solo. Just revert the stagger duration change for solo, and leave the stagger duration nerf for coop.

81

Tying it to timing would solve the maintenance issue, but I’ve just realized that this whole idea has other major issue. Players would abuse it by equipping two weapons, one as heavy and slow as possible to maximize parry effectiveness, and then switch to their main weapon, likely much faster, to deal actual damage.

82

I think the real issue here is that if at any point parry becomes rewarding and useful to a skilled player, the rest of this game’s player base would start whining about it being too strong.
It’s strange, because parrying in DS3 and Elden Ring requires some level of skill and can trivialize some fights, but I never heard anyone whining about it just because they cannot do it.
Of course, some of these individuals claim they are parry-masters and still complain that it’s OP, but it is hard to really take their word as much as consider it a false attempt at authenticity generation.

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84

→ But some people would complain.

Why are we talking about this?