Enemies are cheating through input reading?

Wicked Feedback
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There are several aspects in the enemy behavior that I don’t like,

  • the homing attacs - you can circle around like a ballerina, the enemy is rubberbanded to the char and does impossible moves to hit you anyways.
  • non interruptable attacs/ no staggering (has nothing to do with the topic, but its often irritating)
  • and input reading? More and more I have the impression, that enemies are reacting to the controller input. They jump away if you are start charging, even if you cancel this at once with the parry button. The ranged weapon enemies hit you, even if you change your direction last second. The homing attacks would fall into the same category in my eyes. Just some examples, there is more.
    Don’t get me wrong, I have fun, but quite often it feels unfair.
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Yes to everything you said. And what i also noticed in regards to input reading is that when i play melee and press the attack button from far away even if i cant reach the enemy he dodges the very same moment i pressed the button. Literally my atack animation hasnt started on the screen but the enemy already dodged. Sometimes repeatedly. It does feel really bad when that happens, like im playing an old Mortal Kombat game in the arcade 30 years ago:))). I hope they fix it.

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the homing attacs - you can circle around like a ballerina, the enemy is rubberbanded to the char and does impossible moves to hit you anyways.

Agreed that they do have some pretty serious, even unreasonable, lock-on ability. Though it’s not for all attacks or enemy types. The bomb throws are particularly brutal. Some enemy types throw several bombs in quick succession which makes dodge-rolling near impossible.

They jump away if you are start charging, even if you cancel this at once with the parry button.

This might be a bad example as charging because you’re arguably telegraphing what you’re going to do.

Using my 2H sword, I usually try to time my charged attacks so that I start right after they attempt a heavy attack.

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Somehow can’t put a heart on the post, so leaving a comment to make this post more visible.

It feels totally insane to do a greatly timed dodge only to get slapped by some micro-second 180 degree turn.

Some of these moves don’t make any sense physically, like, these guys couldn’t possibly have the torque to make that spin so fast while holding such a massive and heavy weapon.

Like the jumping axe guys in the fort: jump forward but then immediately swinging a 15kg axe behind them. What?!? :rofl:

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Yeah I agree with you about the anemies changing of direction in an insane way… I hope that this is not on purpose, and they fix it in the future.

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  • Homing attack hit only if you dodge too early I think, which ends up with you punished at the end of the dodge. I’ve had no problem dodging any of the attacks in the game once I got the timing down.
  • Non interruptable attacks are often associated with telegraphed, slow animations leaving you all the time in the world to stop dodge.
  • I don’t think it’s input reading. Probably the enemies react at the first frame of the animation, which can feel like input reading but it’s not.
    Also I don’t understand what you mean with “ranged weapons enemies hit you, even if you change your direction last second”. I’ve been side-stepping (not dodging, side-stepping) arrows for a while now, and the bombs from the bomb-thrower enemies can be avoided simply by running. The same applies for the witches blasting you with firebolts. Either you’re exaggerating things, or I’m just that good I guess.
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A few things as response:

  • clearly you are amazing, never forget it :heart_eyes_cat:
  • with my 20 years experience in handball I guarantee you that once someone is halfway a throwing animation, they can indeed change direction of the throw but it will not be with the same velocity and range as the original direction. What that means is that dodging sideways while half a screen away from the enemy when he is near the end of the animation should lead to a reasonable dodge, but these guys still throw at you with full velocity, range and accuracy. And these bombs likely aren’t very lightweight either, which makes it even less based in reality.
  • it’s possible to dodge them when running/dodging mid-bomb-flight, but that shouldn’t be the only timing (as per the above)
  • similar thing applies to the “instantly turnaround after landing a 20m leap whilst wielding a 15kg axe” enemies. Momentum of large objects doesn’t work that way. If you make a 20m jump (which we’ll call ok because of keeping speed in the game, and very clearly telegraphing of the move), the subsequent action is another moment going forward to stop the sheer momentum of the weight. Try running your car at 40km an hour and see if you can drive in reverse instantly. You can’t, it takes x meters to come to a stop before you can drive in reverse

So while “git gud” does fix the difficulty here, the feel that your “realistically perfect dodge” was in vain still takes away from the immersion and feels incorrect

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clearly you are amazing, never forget it :heart_eyes_cat:

Duh, thanks man, I’m sure there is no irony behind this compliment and it is completely sincere. <3

with my 20 years experience in handball I guarantee you that once someone is halfway a throwing animation, they can indeed change direction of the throw but it will not be with the same velocity and range as the original direction. What that means is that dodging sideways while half a screen away from the enemy when he is near the end of the animation should lead to a reasonable dodge, but these guys still throw at you with full velocity, range and accuracy. And these bombs likely aren’t very lightweight either, which makes it even less based in reality.

If “changing direction while halfway a throwing animation” is your definition of homing, I have nothing to counter your point with.
The OP mentioned homing projectiles that “hit you even if you change your direction last second”. That has not happened to me even once. Yes, the enemies correct the trajectiory of the launch probably up to the last frame of the throwing animation and there is also some amount of correction done in consideration to the direction you’re moving (and most games do this), but it’s still very very far from homing and completely in the realm of dodging.
Also why the fuck are you dodging before the end of the animation while half a screen away, god has given you invincibility frames and you’re not even using them to go dodge the actual projectile???

similar thing applies to the “instantly turnaround after landing a 20m leap whilst wielding a 15kg axe” enemies. Momentum of large objects doesn’t work that way.

Both the jump and the followup of those enemies you’re mentioning have clear, telegraphed startups. Wait for the leap, dodge out of the way, wait for the followup, dodge the strike and profit off the very generous recovery window of the enemy. So while unrealistic, they are by no means unfair to the player.
Also, I would like to bring to your attention that techincally the player can throw a greatsword like a boomerang and catch it once it comes back. Clearly, physics realism wasn’t a priority in development, and it only makes the game better.

So while “git gud” does fix the difficulty here, the feel that your “realistically perfect dodge” was in vain still takes away from the immersion and feels incorrect

The message I tried to convey to the OP wasn’t “git gud”. It was “I don’t agree with the issues you’re mentioning and I think it’s because you’re viewing them in the wrong way. Here’s my take on it.”
And really, it wasn’t a “realistically perfect dodge” if you got hit in the end.
I-frames exist. The only realistically perfect dodge is the one that works.

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I was in fact just being nice. You’re clearly great at this game when you can use iframes instead of getting out of the way (which takes longer and is less optimized). Not everyone on the internet is sour (yet :smiling_face_with_tear:)

Regarding the unrealistic boomerang attack: whilst I agree, I think there’s a fine line where special attacks are allowed to be in the “fantasy spectrum” and enemies doing plain stuff like swinging an axe should be in the “realistic spectrum”

That’s just my view, but I can respect that you see it differently :+1:

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Oh, sorry. I though you were ironic since, well, I hardly consider myself great at the game and usually no one is this nice on the internet.
Thanks.

I see your point on the axe enemy, I still feel like it’s nothing unsettling and many games have something like this.

But, well, as you said it’s just a matter of opinions and perspective.

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Got to focus on using iframes to negate this sort of thing, alternatively, smother the enemy and roll towards them and around to their back rather than trying to get out of range of the attacks.

The only attack the really gets under my skin is the weird blue fire explosion the knights in the crucible cast. Seems to be an audio only que.

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They give you input lag and don’t let you roll if you are to good as well :joy:

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I feel like I’ve seen bombs change direction in mid-air to track me.

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bombs change direction mid air I’m 100% sure of that. I actually tested to see if the enemy does severe input reading by walking up to a enemy with a spear and shield and jiggled around a bit and sure enough the enemy reacted to my silly jiggling around mimicking my little movements as soons as I wiggled my thumbstick back and fourth. The enemy AI is definately cheating lol

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Yes, they do. Enemies who throw a fire bomb can read controller input. If I dash toward when they first throw a bomb, they will immediately throw the second bomb in my face.

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