Weapons: more Depth and Homogeneity

My issue:

I personally like weapons with varied attack patterns and charge attacks. Because it gives me more options and depth to my playstyle.

Now I find a weapons that I like the visuals of, however, it has little depth in it’s moveset. Malice’s 2-hit chain and 1 hit running attack come to mind; no charge attack and no rolling attack. The weapon has great visuals but lacks depth to it’s moveset. Resulting to me picking a different weapon.

Obviously this is EA. But, I think it would be a good idea to have both more depth to movesets as well as homogeneity, as @Lamni put it, across various weapons.

The suggested options should all have a valid use in combat. There should not be an option that is blatantly more powerful than the other. Different ‘‘attacks’’, Charged Attack vs Basic Attack vs Running attacl, should serve different purposes.

My suggestion would be to have the following baseline across all weapons:

Baseline

  • Ensure every weapon has a basic attack chain of at least 3 hits.

  • Ensure every weapon has a charged attack at any point in the basic attack chain.

  • Ensure every weapon has a running attack.

  • Ensure every weapon has a rolling attack.

We could then have an option to further make each weapon feel more unique by combining what @Astont36 @Psytoxin @WolfieZee @Lamni have suggested.

Unique Combo

Currently some weapons feel very shallow. If we build upon the unique moveset of weapons and make sure each weapon has something special that is in line with some of the suggestions of @Lamni

Tucked Falcon, for instance has a unique running attack where you attack 7-9 times and quickly build focus and stagger on an enemy. This modifies your playstyle and combat. Generally you can Dodge, Running Attack, Dodge, 2-3 regular attacks (stagger stacked + 100 focus build), Rune special.

The weapon creates it’s own playstyle.

Whereas…

Weapon Example Malice:

Malice has a 2-hit chain and a running attack but, no charged attack. Extending Malice’s hit chain by 1, and adding a charge attack increase our attack options. This allows for more decision making when attacking.

Current Options:

  • Attack, Attack

  • Running Attack

Suggested Options:

  • Attack, Attack, Attack

  • Running Attack

  • Rolling Attack

  • Charge Attack

  • Unique Combo Attack

Malice is fairly lacking.

Conclusion:

The latter allows for more tactical decision making when approaching combat. It makes combat more engaging since you have more options. This suggestion builds upon current existing systems in Wicked.

Making sure that weapons are more homogeneous in their base moveset ensures people won’t default to certain weapons and all weapons are ‘‘viable’’.

Adding more depth to weapons creates more weapon identity and allows the weapon the influence the playstyle of the player. This in turn creates more build ideas and build upon affix customization.

Because, let’s be honest. A weapon with a 2-hit chain and a running attack only is a bit boring. I understand it is EA, but there is so much potential with the systems in place. That it feels like the potential isn’t being fully utilized.

Edits: without caffeine my wording was a bit non-consistent, fixed that.

BIG Edit: based upon a suggestion by @Lamni

Edit: Icebreaker seems to have more depth to it as it’s hit chains are on the sprint and rolling attack, thanks for pointing this out @Knite_137

Edit: @Knite_137 made a list detailing the weapon movesets of weapons, link below:

Weapon testing and movesets list

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To be honest I actually somewhat disagree with this. I enjoy the fact that certain weapon attack patterns are totally different. There’s a lot of hidden attacks too. For example, if you do a charged attack on your second attack in the combo with a katana, it does a double swipe. I kinda enjoy the idea that there isn’t much conformity among weapon types and each one forces you to go about combat in a different way.

I’m a big fan of delayed input combos like in DMC though. They’re even present to a degree in other souls likes like Jedi fallen order/survivor. Would love to see weapons have their combo capabilities rounded out with something like this.

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I don’t dislike the weapon attack patterns being different. I just dislike how some weapons constraint your playstyle.

My main issue is that certain weapons don’t provide the options like you had with your katana. That extra option sounds amazing.

With Malice I have a 2-hit chain and a running attack with 1 attack. Those are all my options. For me that’s an issue as I was planning to use that weapon for a build but felt extremely limited in my options.

I think all weapons should have the same base ‘combos’ as what you are suggesting, but then beyond that, some weapons should introduce entirely new combo types to maintain the original intent of each weapon being unique.

2 Likes

I totally agree that the combat needs more options.
Not only from enchantment effects, but mechanically it should have some options too. I also kind of feel like the animations are a bit sluggish.

I made a suggestion talking about how I think it would be a good idea to have some stats (STR,DEX,INT,FAITH) have more combat and mechanical effects in the game other than being a STAT-check for weapon usage.
check out the post here:

Honestly I think this whole topic needs to be addressed by Moon Studios, because it will dictate how much longevity the game has. The novelty will wear off quickly if the gameplay feels very unidimensional as it seems to be leaning on at the moment.

By the way, I think it would be cool if we could chain charge attack in between that would change the moveset. However it does take some work to set up so many weapon combinations in the animation locomotion state machine in the game engine; but i think it’s worth it.

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Sounds like deepening combos for each weapon type would be a great addition in general

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I personally like this feature and i dont think they patched it out yet but different white weapons of the same weapon could have different combos. (Im currently trying to build a blood short sword and seems to only be swipe, swipe, poke) Not sure this is super common knowledge yet though. My quest for finding baemore was one of my fav moments in the game trying to get my desired combo on the claymore. What i wanted for my basic combo was chop, poke, swipe. I did not want swipe swipe chop for example. I wanted my charge attack to be a chop as well, my dash needed to be double swipe. i put all my money into white claymore untill there it was! The stats werent perfect but the combo was i had found it i felt so satisfied. I hope this wasnt a bug because this hidden detail for me was incredible not only the stats were differfent but even how the weapons were used was. Certain weapons dont charge and thats fine to me maybe one will while another doesnt idk yet but thats part of the thrill.

This right here 1000%

They mentioned they wanted to add 100’s of weapons. But if they all feel shallow what is their point? You’ll just throw it away and find something you like.

If the base moveset of the weapons get’s expanded and then further allow for charge attacks to change weapon combo’s. It adds even more depth to the weapons.

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To be fair, compared to other souls likes, each weapon does have a fair bit more going on, at least as far as I can recall. Certainly more than Elden ring and souls series.

And it is AMAZING that each of the 21-22 weapon types have their own unique movesets.

Playing Bloodborne rn too and I must say the weapon switching attacks are some of the most unique moves in a combat game I’ve ever played. Would love to see wicked toy with that concept too.

Maybe a “trick weapon” would always have one focus-free rune that transforms it to a diff form, and if you weave it in a combo it’ll perform a unique attack

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Here I am !!! :grin:

I haven’t taken the time yet to test the Early Access Patch 1 and do a deep dive to test as much weapons as possible but I really want to do it at some point.

If I refer to my own experience(Claymore, Daggers) up till now I felt that the base attacks kit was pretty light.

To give some perspective on how we can define weapon moveset viability I’ll make a little analysis of the dynamics that we can consider:

  • Reach
  • Damage
  • Mono or multi target hit
  • Combo potential
  • Static or additional motion
  • Mechanical complexity (ex: hold to release)
  • Additional utility (ex: build stagger meter)

As a first rule and most important rule I would say that an attack with high reach, high damage, multi target, with high combo potential, additional motion, low mechanical complexity and additional utility should not exist.

The main reason is that this attack will invalidate any other one in the kit encouraging, or forcing if the situation requires it, the player to mainly, if not only, use this one.

Secondly.

If the goal is to create varied movesets and encourage the player to have a deep understanding of his weapon I can give some guidelines:

  • Long reach attack should not have additional motion
  • High damage attack should be at the end of a combo or mechanically complex
  • You need to have mono and multi target hit attacks in your kit
  • Combos should have a moderate damage output and/or utility to prevent spamming
  • Attacks with additional utility should be mechanically complex or/and with low damage

My recommendations here should not be taken as my golden rules.

I give them to open some discussions and bring a wider perspective on how this problematic can be handled.

For me a good weapon moveset design is a moveset with attacks mixing and matching these dynamics but without having an attack or combo that we can consider as the META option for this specific weapon.

If I had to give the name of a game with the ideal weapon variety and movesets I would name Monster Hunter: each weapon has a very distinct feel and deep mechanics.

Saying that I don’t think No Rest For The Wicked has to go that far.

If I had to give a word about what I think @RomoloHero calls Conformity and I would call Homogeneity: If the weapon moveset pool is not homogenous in the dynamics it exploits we are going to end up with invalidated weapons.

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I am not likely to play this game after the story is done with the end game stuff people speak about when it comes to other ARPGs but I agree this would be beneficial. I think everyone who has played this so far wants to ensure that this retains a massive amount of the ‘soulike’ feeling and less of other ARPG feeling of a clicker game.

I would like to see more heavy/charged attack combos. Maybe 2-3 hold length combos. If you hold it for a bit you get added damage but not that much. But if you hold it longer (a second or third flash of the weapon) it does significantly more damage. This would be useful to do increased damage as part of a combo in normal combat or set up for a huge damage boost when enemies or bosses are staggered.

I always think more options are better (within reason of course!) and people who will play this game a lot will benefit from discovering and perfecting these kind of little details while people like me who won’t play past the story benefit from added techniques while playing. It also adds to the uniqueness of the game.

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I’ll make some edits to my OP based on your idea’s.

Afterwards I’ll engage in more discussion. Because there are some good points here that I want to respond to.

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It is actually maybe the best way to experience it.

I have the feeling that some comments consider the current experience as the definitive one but considering what Moon Studio says we are far from it.

When I say that I realize how bad and good of a thing it is.

I am not adverse to playing after the story is done but if it is more crucible style gameplay I imagine I won’t be playing that kind of content as it just doesn’t appeal to me. Diablo and other ARPGS have an end game stuff and I have never really got into that. PVP and repeatable content never works for me I have 200 other games that are in my Steam List with 43 in a ‘Game still to play’ category!

The game is amazing at the moment and I have said elsewhere that I have actually have stopped playing after 31hrs as I don’t want to burn out on it. I am terable with Souldlikes as I burnout on them pretty much everytime. I have 80hrs odd in Elden Ring but had only just got to the City. Had to end there. Lies of P was amazing but the same happened.

I am looking forward to seeing what they come up with. They have taken on a huge task mixing these together and there is the concern they might have to make too many accommodations to appease people. I really hope they do it though as it has been too long since people took risks and tried to do new things

If you compare the claymore to other 2-handed swords. You’ll realize that most are actually missing a charge attack. So their base kit is even ‘‘worse’’ than the claymore. The claymore to me felt like more versatile to others. It just lacked that special feeling.

I think weapons should have more identity to them with those suggestions in mind. Maybe a 2-handed sword has a charge attack with big reach and aoe. Or the running attack is a jump and slam which increases stagger on the enemy by a lot.

100% agreed, there should never be 1 option that is better than any other.

This is very well put.

For me it would be For Honor. But, that can’t be achieved since the systems are incompatible. Besides that community :joy: :joy: :joy:

I think the baseline as I put it is a good starting point and then customize some things to make them feel more unique.


IIve been doing some testing on this and found ALOT of weapon diversity you can read my post for a guide but there is quite a bit going for it.

Bless you :+1:

This is amazing, I’m gonna give that a read.

I generally don’t check the ‘‘General’’ section. So thanks for posting it here.

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Meh not as great an idea as you may think depending on the game style. Nioh has more depth + homogeneity to their combat system but all that turned into is 80% of movesets were clinically useless. As is you might not like a weapon’s moveset but it doesn’t discount it, Corpse Smeared Blade is slow as all hell but using it still feels satisfying when you do master it against an enemy. Sometimes less is more.

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I agree with this mindset. It’s a balance of providing more ways for players to express themselves without providing them so much that new/different gear becomes trivialized. @death_the_kid

That still doesn’t change the fact that some weapons are vastly inferior.

I can see where you are coming from, but, some weapons really need some extra variety in their kit.

Malice has a 2 hit chain plus a single leap. Even making sure it has a charge attack is already better.

Icebreaker doesn’t even have a hit chain. It is just 1 attack over and over.

My issue is that, when more weapons are added, some will remain shallow. And thus never used, so why add them in the first place.

Also added rolling attacks to the OP.

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