The stamina System Needs to be Removed from Video Games

Wicked Feedback
1

Recently, I watched an interview between Chris Wilson, PoE co-founder, and David Brevik, one of the original Diablo and Diablo II designers. One of the questions for David was what design choice he regretted the most in Diablo II, and David said it was the stamina system. He stated that it was meant to stop people from rushing through the game, but in the end, it was just useless.

I didn’t think much of it at the time, but recently, after a couple hundred hours of NRFTW’s action-packed fun, I went back and revisited some remakes and newer versions of my favorite older Asian/Japanese action RPGs, and realized the degree to which stamina systems are dreadful.

Some of my favorites were the Secret of Mana/Trials of Mana games and the Dynasty Warriors games. The latest, Dynasty Warriors: Origins, is absolutely great. It is absolutely peak Dynasty Warriors. I 100% completed both games on Steam. Trials of Mana feels old, but it still has pretty fun gameplay and engaging combat without any stamina system, and it made me realize how much I fucking hate stamina now.

As a player, it just feels completely useless. It’s not fun, and it removes immersion by forcing you to look at a bar every few seconds. It artificially stops the action and forces you to sit there and wait for stamina to come back. On top of that, most of these games already have resource-management systems such as mana, rage, focus, etc. And I realized I have never played a video game without a stamina system and wished it had one. Never.

It feels like stamina was introduced into gaming by devs as a virus, and then it just spread like a copy-paste mechanic without much insight. Only when I went back to games without it did I realize how terrible stamina is.

A stamina system is essentially a tax on almost every action within the game: running, fighting, chopping wood, etc. But action is the fun part of these action games. I know stamina is supposed to add balance or tension or some shit, but it adds no fun at all. It’s superfluous and anti-fun. It feels like using Scotch tape to fix deeper design problems.

Now that I’m aware of it, I can’t unsee it.

P.S.

This isn’t a critique specifically directed at NRFTW, and I am not stupid enough to ask for stamina to be removed at this stage of development. This is more of a general critique, personal venting, and hope that game devs move away from this system in the future.

2

He stated that it was meant to stop people from rushing through the game, but in the end, it was just useless.

Sounds like they just made a bad stamina system. The Soulsbourne games, especially Elden Ring, are wildly popular ARPGS, praised for their combat systems, and they feature strong stamina-based combat.

And I realized I have never played a video game without a stamina system and wished it had one. Never.

I mod The Witcher 3 to have a stamina system and it adds a lot to the flow of the game. The most popular combat mods for that game are ones that add some form of stamina-based melee combat.

A stamina system is essentially a tax on almost every action within the game: running, fighting, chopping wood, etc. But action is the fun part of these action games. I know stamina is supposed to add balance or tension or some shit, but it adds no fun at all.

Fine if you don’t find fun in it, many of us do. It adds a layer of challenge to the game, how well can you manage your stamina in a fight while eeking out the most damage. It also avoids roll spamming and makes players have to be more precise with their actions.

3

I honestly can’t agree on this, and i also find using Diablo II Situation as basis is kinda weird, since conceptually, esp. going by Davids words, the reason why Diablo 2 had Stamania in, and why Games like Dark Souls, Monster Hunter or NRftW have in is for different reasons.

Adding it to take out pace for a Game like Diablo 2 - which in combat is much more straightforward, is simply differently to an direct combat where it adds weight, tension and makes combat more methodical, instead of reflex-based and/or heavy combocentric.

I can see why david brevik regretted it in case of Diablo 2, because in that instance it didn’t add much value to it (it had some minor features towards blocking and what not) and it’s not to say that ‘every’ iteration is good, but there is value in, even for (certain) ARPG’s.

I mean, to an extend i can see the Argument if it really taxes ‘all’ mechanics, even for elements where it may not even beneficial. Like having a big world, and you want from A to B outside of combat… - i can see how it can feel bad with no real return. But that’s also why modern games gradually are more selective towards what is taxed by stamania and where it sticks since it does add an layer to it.

I’m sorry to say this, but that’s more on you than general. I’ve had Fun with Games which had stamania (like the mentioned one) since it gives some values to it. Obviously not ALL games, like as example Diablo 2 i found it also more annoying then benefiting the game. Or a Bayonetta/DMC type of action game, that also would be kill the purpose of their games. But Games like NRftW, Souls, Hunter etc - they are differently, they have general more weight to their combat, which makes them more methodical, and that is also fun.

I would agree with the sentiment that not every Game needs to have Stamania Bars, but in the same sense not every Game needs to be zoom-zoom nonstop action.

And what you kinda asking for / criticsizing is like if you would go to a asseto corsa or gran turismo type of game and criticizing the realism element is ‘no fun’ and ‘anti-fun’ and they should go more Need for Speed or Mario Kart.

4

Thank you for your answer. So, if I understand correctly, stamina is an alternative to reflex-heavy and combo-heavy gameplay. I think you hit the nail on the head for me.

I might just really like reflex-heavy gameplay, and I do enjoy combos. Reflex testing forces my attention, and remembering combos and executing them well is kind of fun. I have a bit of ADHD, and slow-paced games can’t retain my attention that well. Yeah, it might make sense.

Though, you mentioned that not every game needs to be zoom-zoom action, and I agree with that. But there are plenty of other ways to regulate that besides a stamina system, like spacing out enemies, exploration, etc.

Anyway. Thanks.

5

I hope they see it as feedback but not to the point where they remove the stamina system, but instead makes us players able to chase such a build in the Game that in the end removes the need of Stamina :thinking:

6

but instead makes us players able to chase such a build in the Game that in the end removes the need of Stamina :thinking:

Imo this would be hella bad, because as a dev, as you continue to balance the game, you always then have to bear in mind there’s a build that can completely ignore parts of your intended balance. It’s the reason why the near-infinite focus ring is also idiotic.

7

to use a ring you only sacrifice a ring slot, to use a build you could have to sacrifice DMG and Defense. For making a build possible you need all pieces of it to be able to make use of it.. for Infinite Focus you only Need 1 Ring.

Come up with a better comparison please ^^

Yes bear in mind that if such a build ever became possible it shouldnt be implemented without sacrifices, but if it got implemented into the game without any balancing around it, then yes it would ruin your so called “intended balance”.

An example of a sacrifice/trade off for being able to ignore the stamina system in the game:
disable Focus Usage.
disable Rune usage.
etc.

8

Ignore the first part of my argument more, please.

9

I’d go one further: If it’s possible to ignore parts of the intended balance, devs will somewhat naturally tend to balance around the builds that do ignore it. In other words, the idiotic ring will become mandatory and the ignored system won’t be balanced for anymore since everyone’s functionally removed it.

10

I mean, sorry to use it once again, but since i heard about modifiers being a possibility in one of the interviews, similiar to the Skulls in Halo, that ‘no-stamania’ could be a fun modifier for such occasions, that way the devs wouldn’t need to care or balance around it, since it’s just a fun-mode/playthrough like Hardcore and such… esp. if such modifiers needs to be earned first.

11

There are people who like it. There are people who don’t. Then there are people who never thought about it.

As with almost everything, balance is the key. No stamina can ruin some games but help others. For combat it sounds useful. Especially when you compare small weapons to big ones. swinging a 2 handed hammer endlessly can make it overpowered. There are other ways to balance ofc.

Stamina while running or farming mats is just annyoing imo. Farming is already a system that was designed as a timesink and if you look at some games those intentions become painfully obvious.

I recently started playing “windrose”. Great game. Had fun. Until farming mats became needed to actually play. Upgrade gear> Farm. Foodbuffs> Farm etc.

And having stamina during this adds some extra frustration.

Lots of games overdo it. Companys see that something works to keep players ingame longer, spend more money or whatever and it gets used to the breaking point.

So balancing this out is key. A game should never, ever feel tedious or annoying. (Hardly possible since every player feels a little different).

And players need to communnicate this clearly. A lot of us accept a lot of garbage just because it is a certain developer or a certain franchise. Fanboys, so to say. Sadly they do not realise that it actually hurts their favs in the long run.

12

The problem is not whether it has stamina or not; the problem is how it is implemented in the game. Right now, it’s too punishing; it penalises you for being aggressive or taking risks. Instead, it forces you to have a more defensive/slow approach: attack, wait a bit, recover, attack, wait a bit, recover. The stamina dictates and forces your combat style; you don’t get to choose it. If you like this type of combat, great, but not everyone does; some prefer a more aggressive/fast style, and when you try it, you get heavily penalised for it, which is why a lot of people hate it.

I believe stamina can be good when it is a tactical consideration, not a tactical hindrance. For instance, a much better implementation of it would instead of stamina link to your movement and attack actions, to have it linked to your defence stats (Poise, armour, etc). The more stamina you have, the stronger your defence. But if you want to go aggressive and risk more damage, it’s up to you. This way, players get to choose from a more defensive/stronger style with a lower damage output, or a riskier/weaker (glasscanon) style with a higher damage output.

The other option is to make it more long-term and with lower penalties, and fix it with your food. So you lose stamina very slowly, and as it decreases, you slowly gain penalties, insignificant initially, but to a certain point they become more relevant, then you eat some food, and it goes away. When you are low in stamina, you do more damage, so you don’t want to be topping it out too often, but if you go too low in it, it will backfire on you.