Reflective Damage (Thorns, Damage on Block/Parry/Dodge) Bugs

[Iggi]

So with the help of Frigid Moth, JonathanOstrus, and a few others from Discord, doing extensive testing of various mechanics, we have found a few potential bugs with the reflective damage in the game.

Thorns

First of all Thorns itself does not benefit from any additional damage modifiers that we have found. Damage increased Enchants (flat %, % against large enemies, % of currently durability, etc.), Damage increased when the enemy is low health, and any damage enchant that comes with a durational buff, such as from the Utility rune, or a conditional enchant that adds damage for 10 seconds after fulfilling a specific condition. Ring of Broken Promises: % Damage increased does not work. Even tried the Fetid Club and it did not work either. It also does not benefit from Physical Damage enchants. Echoes from the Crucible also do not affect thorns.

Thorns does seem to be affected by Armor Pen as well as the armor/resists of the enemy though. Dealing less damage typically to enemies that have armor or resists toward the element they hit you with. Obviously you can’t have Armor Pen and Thorns on the same item at the same time, so it’s a rather moot point.

Damage On Block/Parry/Dodge

Now these do benefit from specific enchants, most notably from the Sinew weapon which increases damage against enemies that are at low health. They also gain increased damage from Armor Penetration as well as the added Physical damage enchants. They DO NOT receive benefits from any other enchants that add damage though. Such as the ones listed above.

So to reiterate:

Thorns

Thorns does not benefit from any damage increases other than stacking more thorns.

Thorns appear to deal less damage based on enemy armor/resists.

Thorns benefits from Armor Penetration but since it shares an enchant slot with Thorns, its a moot point.

Damage on Block/Parry/Dodge

Benefits from:
Sinew: Damage increased against low health enemies

Armor Penetration

Physical Damage

DOES NOT benefit from:
Damage Increase enchants (conditional or not)

Damage increase enchants that come in the form of a buff with a duration

Echoes adding damage

[askan94]

@Iggi

Thorns

Isnt thorns based on how much damage the enemy do?

[Iggi]

It is not actually, it has a very weird formula, we originally thought that too, but more extensive testing concluded it has its own wonky formula. Also to note the type of damage changes based on the type of damage you’re hit with. So if you’re hit with fire, it’ll deal fire damage back.

[askan94]

Have you tried lowering/increasing your own physical/elemental resist?

[Iggi]

Fully naked, or with gear on didn’t alter the amount dealt back. Also the Broken Promises ring did not add to that either, just the part that makes you take more damage. Thorns remains consistent with its damage output regardless of how you try to change it. That being said, the Damage on Block/Parry/Dodge is dictated by your own level and the level of the enemy, the formula… is bizarre and I have a working formula at the moment, but it’s weird.

Thorns I still have yet to figure out the formula, or to see if it changes based off level as well, need more testing with this.

[fishypixels]

Yeah thorns has been hard to narrow down. May help to combine our testing/results.

A Guide to Reactive Damage: Thorns, Thistle Ring, and Damage on Block

No reactive damage benefits from damage % increases like the fierce ring (damage % increased on damage taken). Thorns As much as I want thorns to be good, it’s just not in its current state. It does not benefit from physical damage % increases. Thorns damage will be the same type of damage as the damage taken. So for instance, getting hit by a plague attack would do plague thorn damage rather than physical. It does benefit from armor penetration, but is part of the same enchantment group so…

How Do Thorns Actually Work?

I see % damage when damage taken on the thistle ring. I also see in the spreadsheet that armor can have this as well. This seems to work with lifesteal. I have over 100% thorns on my gear, thinking this would make replacing the ring easy, but it seems to do way less damage and not proc lifesteal. What’s the difference between these two stats? Is the ring damage based on my weapon? And is thorns based on incoming damage? Is that calculated before or after mitigation? Would 100% thorns mean reflec…

When I was trying to make a thorns build, armor pen did increase its damage but since they are a part of the same enchantment group, I didn’t go that deep in to it - i.e. is it better to go full thorns or balance it with armor pen.

[Iggi]

This is pure theoretical with the exalts in the right spots mind you. Currently the tier list of builds is this:

1 - Damage on Parry - can potentially get up to 2197.9 damage on parry

Caveat: Damage on Parry can appear on 4 items total, totaling 190% damage on Parry

2 - Damage on Block (DoB) w/ full Armor Pen, Physical Damage, and 160% thorns - potential of 850+ reflective damage (3 instances of damage, 1 from shield, 1 from ring, 1 from thorns)

Caveat: Damage on Block assumes a combined total of 85% damage on block

3 - Pure DoB w/ full armor Pen +80% physical - potential of 820 damage

3 - Pure Thorns - 569 damage

4 - Pure DoB w/ 100% Armor Pen and NO physical - 456 damage

5 - Damage on Dodge - didn’t bother with the math

[Smegsmerelda]

@askan94

Isnt thorns based on how much damage the enemy do?

yeah (or I guess not?), but some games allow damage modifiers after the fact.

I really want to see the code for thorns based on this lol. It’d be funny to see how much of the theory aligns.

[askan94]

@Smegsmerelda

but some games allow damage modifiers after the fact.

Hmm.. no this is incorrect/correct and very vague of you to point out because “some games” do, while “some games” don’t.

That however is in fact a fact!

This is not after the fact its even before the fact which is what makes it so much better, because i dont need to worry about the fact.

@Smegsmerelda

It’d be funny to see how much of the theory aligns.

So therefore you don’t need to worry wether your theory aligns or not, because it aligns in either way.

[Silas-Inservio-Pax]

Thanks for the extensive report Iggi (and your fellow collaborator!), I will escalate this.

Silas