Following the “Breach Patch 1 Sneak Peek” post from Thomas, I’m delighted to read that ranged classes will have a second chance, and as I really want those classes to make it to version 1.0, I would like to share a few ideas about ranged gameplay.
Shooting Mechanics
Simple Shots
Consume very little endurance
Deal very little damage
Don’t interrupt enemy actions
Increase enemy stagger gauge more than melee attacks
Staggered enemies would be perfect openings for charged shots
Charged Shots
Can take longer to charge than melee attacks, but damage and endurance cost is equivalent to how much you could charge before release; it’s not just quick attack or charged attack, you have all the “in-between” possibilities
Stats and Progression
Agility Points
Besides the current effect of increasing damage for weapons scaling with agility, slightly increase player’s attack movements, and in the case of archers, increase shot cadence more than increasing damage, reinforcing the dynamic of fights
Fight Fluidity
This system encourages a cinematic and dynamic combat style, reminiscent of Legolas sequences in The Lord of the Rings: fluid chains of quick arrow shots mixed with dodges. The typical sequence would look like: shot, shot, dodge, shot, shot, dodge, shot, charged shot to finish.
Many would say this is what we already have, but I mean something quicker and more dynamic, where attacks would do less damage, so you can’t clear the screen before enemies can reach you.
Special Parries
For Archers
Unique skill to intercept enemy (archers) arrows when parrying at the right moment
Bonus: next arrow shot, even if quick, will be equivalent to a charged shot
For Mages/Wizards
Same mechanic: possibility to intercept incoming magic attacks with a parry
Same bonus: next magic attack will be equivalent to a charged magic attack
Enemy Behavior
When facing a player equipped with a bow or magic weapon, enemies would adapt their tactics:
Increasing dodges (they aren’t completely oblivious; they see what’s coming )
Trying to close the gap as quickly as possible to force melee combat, unless they also use ranged attacks
If equipped with shields, they will try to parry or block projectiles
The best moment to attack them is when they start an action, during the action, or right after when they recover, but outside these windows, they will employ the tactics above
This is a first sketch of what ranger (mostly archer) classes could be, taking into consideration that fights should still look cool (very dynamic, with many quick attacks and dodges), but not too powerful, so the player would still need to be very careful: no easy victories, at least no easier than melee.
I like finding players who are interested in fixing and balancing ranged gameplay. I recommend checking out this topic:
I believe a range-based system would be the most effective. This kind of system prevents players from abusing maximum range attacks and rewards those who learn to manage the optimal distance. Take a look at the topic, and if you find the idea interesting, feel free to incorporate it and refine your proposal even further!
Uh maybe. To be frank I’m hesitant to know what feedback to give of the combat system at present.
Fuck this got long, sorry. I don’t feel like you can discussed ranged combat in earnest without discussing the games combat as a whole.
This is opinion, nothing more but after 500 hours pre-breach I feel confident in saying ranged combat doesn’t work in Wicked at current build. It trivializes the few mechanics we have when it’s working and feels unusable when not supported by end game gear affixes and uniques.
I got in trouble for asking why would Moon make bow pure focus again; only to revert weeks later and yet here we are. I promise @thomas… I’m not trying to come off as a complete prick when I say this… but if you’re listening… As a consumer the current combat is giving me Star Citizen vibes. Lofty goals without a clear direction and possibly without the current capability to execute sed lofty goals. To put in another’s words because I lack the clarity to express exactly what I think in few words, I’m reminded of Michelangelo.
“The sculpture is already complete within the marble block, before I start me work. It’s already there, I just have to chisel away the superfluous material.”
Thomas communicates often but it hasn’t left me with a picture of what’s coming. Now my personal difficulty is in trusting others, so my opinion on the game, likewise carries this jaded point of view. HOWEVER! This is not to say I have lost my faith in what Moon is capable of…
(also yes this is relevant to the ranged discussion, yes it’s going to be a long post, grab a cold drink and the pipe)
The world that Moon has created is bar non the best one I’ve ever explored. It’s so interconnected, resources are abundant and you can clearly see that so much thought and effort was put into it’s creation. This isn’t glazing, I just call it like I see it, and when credit is due I find it easy to praise the work that’s been done. It’s absolutely brilliant, and there’s so much more to come! Something I don’t believe the fast travel community appreciates but I digress.
That said, what doesn’t feel (again my emotions and opinions only…) like it has the same care and attention is the games combat. Recent interviews have reinforced this opinion, specifically the interview with DarthMicrotransactionT where Thomas spoke about playing games with his son, the genre that inspired him, and what where he felt Wicked could fill a void caused by lack of creativity and/or a willingness to try something different.. to buck the status quo. I very much believe Moon is willing to take risks and explore what could be but I don’t that any of us even know what that greener pasture looks like at this point.
While I agree with him entirely that the only avenues for consumers have been much of the same for far too long. No different than trying to see a movie these days looking at what’s available and going… oh… really milking that IP for all it’s worth huh, or Oh..another deathstar! oh boy!.. lets face it the market for entertainment on all sides has been treated with the same safe and boring approach to the point of being stale and boring. Once you’re aware of the mouse trap, it’s time for a better contraption.
Wicked feels like it is being built for people who want something different, and something that consumers who are used to the same BS year after year wont be able to ignore because of how engaging it will be on release (I hope).
At current build I don’t feel the same level of understanding regarding combat from Wicked’s combat as I see in the world design. Even with the animations regarding weapons it feels less like a well crafted system and more like Thomas walking us through his tool shead and showing off all these wonderful assets… like oh! hey look at this! I just thought this was cool so I made it, etc. It feels like we’re throwing darts at the board to see what sticks in regards to combat. This emotional response for me it felt was doubled down on with the changes to bow about to be reverted.
It feels like Thomas and company saw the blatant mockery ranged weapons made of Wicked’s combat and said how do we fix this? Idk we have lots more work to do but we can cut off their resources for now and see what happens. It didn’t feel like a “welcome to testing” response but rather cutting off a playstyle below the knee because they needed significantly more time to hash out the full scope of the issue. Forcing it to be gear reliant meaning it wouldn’t be the first build you play. Letting people get to know Wicked better before using health for focus and just obliterating any and all challenge to the player.
Which is not to say that melee skills don’t have their fair share of hilariously overturned runes. Wicked can be trivialized in many forms, but we also have a fraction of the game and systems that haven’t been fleshed out so I can’t argue it’s not to be expected at this point either. And so all that said, grievances aside… I hope that what Moon is doing is chiseling away as we speak. But items like the games new camera give me pause as to what we’re doing here.
Thomas has talked up the combat update and skill tree so I don’t know that we can give any truly meaningful feedback until those systems are revealed.
IMO we can only discuss wish list items at this stage.
That said… this is my take on the current builds combat and how ranged could fit in…
This is an oversimplification but I will stand my ground that the games combat is a stones throw from Elden Ring set in the world Moon has created instead of the lands between. So what separates it?
Flasks or lack thereof, combat sustain, and access to more “weapon arts” aka runes.
Moon wants to give the player a reason to explore the world beyond the enemies alone with removing flasks from the equation. The meal system is much more meaningful than a trivial vial that fills up every rest. Flasks also impact mana, or in Wicked Focus. But focus isn’t mana and I feel Moon has made that abundantly clear. The combat system without talismans enables the player to heal and gain focus. An improvement on FromSoftwares platform IMO. The current weapon system rewards players for fighting without restricting build diversity because the talismans of ER are baked into the combat system of Wicked AND expanded on with ARPG gear that allows players to have even greater freedoms in playstyle. Last but definitely not least is parry being a core mechanic and not locked behind individual weapons like in ER. It can not be overstated how impactful this change alone is for me. I’ve played though ER and ever souls game that FromSoftware has released but every time I finish one I’m left feeling like I just had the same experience as before in a slightly different setting. I’m not eager to do it all over again, and stop playing as soon as I’m done experimenting with any new weapons and gear combinations that tickle my fancy.
Part of why I believe the ranged combat isn’t fleshed out in Wicked is because it was never addressed in the souls games either and the starting point for Wicked is very.. very souls. In the souls games ranged weapons were made realistic in the sense they’re no good in a face to face fight. ER gave significantly more fantasy to the weapon than ever before with unique weapon arts; however outside of starting a fight they felt bad to play IMO. I believe players want that Legolas inspired buffoonery that is more accompanied with ARPGs.
Trouble is we’re not playing a screen clear ARPG and if the combat is to be meaningful, the enemies have to get much stronger and less… stupid. There’s a lot of idle time on enemies and they don’t dodge attacks for the most part. We got the first taste of more aggressive and more mobile enemies in breach so it’s quite possible we’re just scratching the surface here. That said… knockdown shot still does just that and with enough damage investment you just delete, delete, delete, without much of any precision from the player. And at that point the game just plays like a “slow” screen clear game.
But time to kill is another issue in Wicked. When it’s too high you feel dog piled and when it’s too low the games combat feels trivial. I think part of the solution could rest in having a diverse group of enemies in encounters so that yes there will be strong mobs with some form of intelligence to give the player a good fight there are also just trash mobs to be shot down and cut through. Not to mention more single combat with enemies that pose an honest threat to the player.
I think the last thing we want in Wicked is the “holy trinity” of archetypes to enable a dps to brain off and run the highest damage cycle of abilities with a tank pulling agro and a support sustaining the team in multiplayer realms. Sure playing as a team should be rewarding but we have to enable that without dulling the combat beyond ranged players only concern being don’t sit in the AOE on the floor.
I wish for all combat in Wicked to
incorporate the importance of positioning
have access to mobility, cause fun
have options unique to each roll/archtype that make the gameplay feel unique for each weapon type
give us lots of tools in combat and the world and limit hard counters in favor of numerous soft counters that encourage the players to use the tools at our disposal
keep parry as a universal mechanic, I love it
I want the battle to feel more like choreography when possible. Monster Hunter would be an example of this, there is a great flow to the fights when you know then enemy.
All that word vomit aside, this is a post added to recently in favor of charges as a mechanic we could explore. Though being to provide ranged players access to their kit at all times, while limiting their resources as well.
TLDR
I’m most interested in a ranged/melee hybrid in Wicked. I want ranged weapons to be meaningful and fun without trivializing the combat and we all need to wait for the combat update
To reply the threads points.
I like the idea of the the arrow shot and charged shot having more of an identity than they do now.
I like the idea of “perfect shots” over and effective zone. Allowing players to be rewarded for executing good spacing and timing for a more powerful attack.
I don’t like the idea of a special parry as cool as it would be to snatch an arrow from the air and fire it back. Same with magic, unless it was to be adapted to melee combat as well. Something that powerful shouldn’t be a ranged exclusive and I like the idea of ranged/melee combat over pure ranged anyhow but that’s my bias talking
Yes to enemy behavior, they just take arrows like a champ and fall over without much recourse. But again time to kill would need to be reviewed and is why I’m in favor of more 1on1 fights in Wicked or rather getting to 1on1 fights. Say you shoot down the trash mobs and have to rely on melee + ranged for the stronger enemies in the group as they will shrug off many ranged attacks.
What’s not said in this thread or my word vomit is how impactful gear can be to both melee and ranged playstyles and I hope for the affix and ring pool to be increased to perhaps specialize in a meaningful way to a particular playstyle. I’m not referencing only ranged vs melee here but in general how players are going about combat in Wicked. How are they generating focus, stamina, sustain, etc and giving players a wide range of options to build to which the impact can be felt in the games combat.
If you made it here, cheers. It was annoying even for me to reread back to myself.
Thanks everyone for your replies! My intention was simply to share an idea that might inspire the developers, without claiming to have the perfect solution for ranged gameplay.
To better illustrate what I mean by “graceful, quick and dynamic combat,” I invite you to watch 2 minutes of this gameplay from Ori and the Will of the Wisps (the clip should start at 9:38 ):
What I find fascinating in this combat is the fluidity of alternating between 3 main themes:
Quick shots to maintain pressure
Graceful dodges to avoid attacks
Charged shots strategically placed when the enemy is vulnerable
Let’s not forget the melee attacks when the distance is minimal, it’s also part of what makes this fight so beautiful.
Of course, Ori is a platformer and Wicked is top-down, but I think this FEELING of “combat dance” could be adapted and would be extremely satisfying.
I’m not commenting on other proposed systems like the “range based system” which certainly has its merits. My focus is really on the emotional and kinesthetic player experience: being able to feel like you’re conducting a deadly choreography with your bow or magic, rather than simply decimating enemies from a distance.
I fully trust the Moon team to make the best decisions and create fun, balanced gameplay, whatever approach they choose
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