I was watching the interview with Raxxanterax this afternoon, and i’ve got something to say about the discussion about fixing bows and casting.
The discussion was about the fact that giving an unlimited ranged option to players was too powerfull, and it is indeed true.
Some proposition were made, notably the fact that some amount of unlimited ranged option can be given if they are low on damage and their range are not too high.
1. Nerfing range for magic is in my opinion a good option because it make some amount of sense that a very basic spell that can be used unlimited has only poor range.
However, the range solution is not suitable for bows because it makes no sense that a bow can only shoot like two meters in front of them. BUT, we should not end up in situations like Darksouls where bows are so low on damage that builds around them are just not feasible. So here is the suggestion based on the solution that was found by Monster Hunter.
2. You should put an OPTIMAL range on bow attacks. And damage that go beyond the optimal range quickly fall off. This way, you can choose some acceptable range without making bows unable to shoot at long range but without making their damage too low to be usefull. In monster hunter it is very important to shoot the bow at the proper optimal range, and this range is specifically made so that you still have to dodge the monster’s attacks.
I believe the optimal range is a great idea, and adding to it we can build an entire focus economy on top of it.
first of all, arrow shot should be a chargeable spell costing stamina, at max charge it will deal 2x of its current dmg and generate 25-30 focus (normal shot generating 12-15, but charging the shot is more stamina efficient), so after 3-4 charged shot a more powerful spell can be launched. if the arrow hit outside the optimal range, its dmg and focus gain is much depleted, which will encourage players to engage their target closer.
Moreover, range characters without shield can be vulnerable at melee range, they can use some low dmg low focus (10-20) but evasive spells (e.g. air shot that launch the character into air ) to mitigate dmg taken.
Finally, spell like multi-shot is really not balance at all, as a 100 focus spell, it is barely doing more damage than 3 arrow shots.
We only have short bows atm and these are a Second Hand Weapon. Thus shouldn’t be used with stamina, are a plus-extra to make a combo with your main weapon. Maybe main hand-double hand bows should.
Before The Breach bows were used with stamina but then people just stayed at a safe distance spamming arrows. Because of the isometric view there isn’t that much of a distance between you and your foes, also depends on the zones, so it its pretty irregular.
I think long range weapons need to be placed somehow at a mele range (at least sometimes) in order to avoid spamming, OP and bland gameplays. Think of every single weapon of the game, even magic wands or staff, they gain focus at close range to use a long range attack.
We have had similar discussions on the past here on the forum. A good idea I rember was using only a limited amount of arrows, then you should have to get close and retrieve the arrows to shot again.
Hi Junn,
The truth is that there are shortbows and longbows. The latter are two-handed, so they’re not a “plus” or a secondary weapon. We know that before Breach, bows consumed stamina and were game-breaking. What has happened after the update is that bows went from breaking the game to becoming an unviable weapon.
What this post is proposing is not a return to the pre-update state. The suggestion is based on a system of optimal range and stamina-based shooting, so that bows deal less damage at excessively long distances, forcing the player to maintain an effective distance within an acceptable range. The challenge will be implementing this in a way that feels satisfying and balanced, but it’s a great option because right now, in No Rest for the Wicked, you can’t play as a pure archer, which is a shame, as it takes away one of the most classic and beloved classes in the community
Shortbows ARE a secondary weapon, this is why it says Off-Hand, same as Shields and even torches. This is why you can’t equip a sword or main weapon on the off-hand nor equip a shortbow/longbow on the MAIN hand. I read in discord that they will be implementing other secondaries as orbes, pipes, etc. For now we only have shield and bows as secondaries.
Crossbows and another long-range MAIN weapons will be implemented in the future, let’s see how they manage to balance that as a MAIN long-range weapon.
At least and at the moment, because the only existing bows are secondary weapons, my opinion is that they shouldn’t be “stamina-based”.
Even dealing less damage, people would spam at a safe distance, it would just take longer to kill foes.
That is why I mentioned this:
Finally, this is true by the fact that there aren’t main long-range weapons at the moment. But I am sure that they are on their way, maybe even in the next “combat update”.
That’s true, bows are currently only secondary weapons, which was my mistake.
With that in mind, I think you’re right: bows shouldn’t be based on stamina.
I dont want to argue whether arrow shot should be a stamina spell, but bows need a constant way to generate focus without getting into melee range, otherwise it would just be a lance with very slow attacks and lower dmg . I feel like an optimal range is already a pretty good solution for ppl spamming high dmg spells, i.e. if your target is too far you wont get anything in return but basically wasting your time and stamina (or focus). Btw if blocking with shield can gain focus, why should a bow get none?
These are some of the long-range “prototypes” and their weapons that could be implemented in the future according to Thomas in Discord, they are “not confirmed yet”. But the point is that there are some main long-range weapons that will be in the game.
Archer
Description: A long-range specialist who rains arrows from powerful great bows.
Weapon: Great Bows (Two-Handed)
Armor Type: Leather
Marksman
Description: A crossbow sharpshooter leveraging STR+DEX for lethal ranged attacks.
Weapon: Crossbows (Two-Handed)
Armor Type: Mesh
Priest
Description: A devout caster reading sacred tomes to invoke holy or arcane power.
Weapon: Tomes (One-Handed)
Armor Type: Cloth
Trickster (New)
Description: A crafty bomb-maker hurling illusions and specialized projectiles from a “trick bag”.
Weapon: Trick Bag (One-Handed)
Armor Type: Leather
Blocking with a shield is a trade of normal damage recieved + poise damage recieved and you get focus. With bow it will be dealing damage + dealing poise damage + focus gain.
Once I had appropriate (but not game breaking) gear, I was actually fine with magic. I do melee a bit, but it still feels magicky and I can use my runes a lot.
Bows, I totally agree. It’s very disappointing. They are basically terrible staves with runes that are weak. It should be stamina (or stamina & focus) based if for no other reason than to differentiate the gameplay from wands/staves.
This is my understanding:
shield = defence (dmg mitigation) + poise dmg (if target has lower poise) + focus - character can not attack
Bow = dmg(can be ignored) + poise dmg - focus - not gaining focus (check it, there is no focus gain on bows, not sure if it is a ui bug or not)