[Moon Studio] What is the intended experience?

Wicked Feedback
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125

So interesting this thread, I am pretty much with you in almost everything and I think what can make this game great is to listen to the feedback of honest players who really enjoy the game, the idea of the game but still have some questions about its essence.

I’ve been playing the game for, like 60 hours now and still. Please, let me tell my story so far before I send my thoughts about the problem with the difficulty experience:

As you said, the first hours of the game for me were amazing, mostly until I beated Falstead. I died like 20 times there cause I don’t even tried to upgrade my gear. So, I finally upgrade everything, weapon and a couple of armour pieces and voilá i just melted Falstead’s head.

After that, I travel first time to the Nameless Path and everything went so, so easy.

The second gap was actually the crucible, First time I tried I was lvl 18 or something like that and it was surely difficult. I was playing an strength build with a Greatsword and I cannot level it up more because of the Bear Paws that actually rarely appear during the crucible runs.

I must say that the first two hours trying to beat room after room of the crucible was hard and funny, died lot of times…but some miracle happened: I found a weapon with % heal on damage.

I upgraded it because, in this case I didn’t need those strange difficult to find bear paws and after that with some random armour with Increas % of healing. That was it, I beated all the rooms and even the Echo Night with no much problem.

Now it’s even easier when I found out that there was an item with % concentration per hit…a quick guide: just buy an axe from the woodsmith, extract the boomerang skill and put it into some two hands weapon with this %concentration on hit (if you have in the same weapon a %of healing you can startar laughing on Echo’s fate.

And that I think is the most fundamental problem. Those two things: the infinite healing and the infinite concentration.

The good news are that I am pretty sure that Moon Studio don’t want to have an easy game but a challenging one, they are doing, I think, a great job with all those hotfixes and stuff and they are listening which is not that usual nowadays.

So, what I expect? To balance those two things or add even harder content. It’s good to have a friendly place where to find better loot but it’s even better to finally beat something really difficult to find EVEN better loot.

I consider myself a big fan of Dark Souls (I played all of them and also Elden Ring and spent hours and hours in their pvp experience) but also a great fan of Diablo (even if the last two didn’t ring the bell for me) and this game, I think do a great combination of both but they must find the right balance between what everybody expect from an Action RPG (improve gear, personalisation, make a fun-to-play build, etc.) and a soulslike (difficulty, player skill gaps, difficult and unique bosses).

I really hope they can make it because I really loved the storytelling so far, the dialogues, the characters, the ambientation, the combat and this is just the beginning.

So, let’s keep playing and finding these obvious need-to-be-rework points and hope the developers read us and know what they need to listen and what they shouldn’t listeng even if that means to have a more specific playerbase.

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126

First, thank you @ryeblues for sharing your entire experience.

It gives more weight and substance to the topic.

I also think that in the background they are carefully considering all of this community’s expectations.

One good sign, for me, was that they have stopped their daily updates routine to, I suppose and hope, focus on the bigger picture.

May I invite you to vote (here top left corner) if it’s not done already?

And again, thank you. :slightly_smiling_face:

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127

My two cents on the Souls-Like vs *ARPG argument:

Why not both? We got the roots for both - Why not allow build and playstyle diversity?

But…

  • If you lean into the Souls-Like playstyle and master it, you should be rewarded.
  • You should also be able to build in a way that get’s past Souls-Like restrictions (even Elden Ring does it). But this should be less efficient. Or at least more difficult to achieve than equipping a high attackspeed weapon with life/focus on hit.
  • Also we can combine elements. Which. I. Love. As a simple example, My last build relied mostly on sustaining stamina and focus through blocking and health through parrying. A build that rewarded me for engaging with the mechanics, rather than avoiding them.

My hope is, that they introduce new mechanically heavy elements, which expand the Souls-Like universe, that can also be influenced through building your character.

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I can feel your passion when I read your reply @Evocator1000 and I like it. :slightly_smiling_face:

I said that earlier in this post:

Even if it seems that I draw a very hard line of incompatibility between both genre, I think there is room for both existing in the same realm.
But the line is quite thin …
If I had to nuance my message now it would be: “Be very very careful with your design choices!!! You may loose both audiences !!!”

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I think the simplest solution to marry both genres would be to make less “Souls-Like” playstyles less efficient, by focussing stats on Souls-Like elements.

For example: not “Focus on hit” because everyone hits (and hitting and doing damage is the reward in itself) but: Focus on block, parry, dodge or while remaining in combat aka surviving.

What do you think?

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Wow !!! :astonished:

Let me breathe a second …

Sounds, to me, like the most brilliant idea I’ve seen roaming around !!! :pray: :pray: :pray:

I like the analysis:

hitting and doing damage is the reward in itself

I like the solution:

Focus on block, parry, dodge

And what I like the most is the purpose it serves which is: rewarding successful defensive plays.

Some may say:

  • “But isn’t parrying a reward in itself ?”. :thinking:

My answer would be:

  • “Obviously.
    But the best way to preserve the Souls-like core combat loop (more on that here) is to value and encourage successful defensive plays.
    Exactly what the core gameplay of Sekiro is if I think about it …”
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I really think this might be fixed when they open new areas and continue to bolster enemy type and variety. I’m having the same problem. But I will say I’m also concerned about the feeling of turret spamming. My current build setup with a hunter’s dagger and a basic bow allows me to spam attacks on foes to gain infinite focus. The dagger has an enchantment that gives 7 percent focus on damage given.

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Just adding my two cents (I’ve only played for a few hours so I guess I’m at that “most enjoyable” part of the game).

What I like so far is that even if I don’t have crazy motor/coordination skills I can tweak what I’m wearing or grind a bit to make the fights a bit easier. To me if feels like the arpg part is to account for the people who can’t just rely of their skills, and I feel glad that it allows me to experience the mechanics of souls-like games without being overly punishing.

I wouldn’t mind if there was some sort of region or game mode where equipment was limited (and maybe our stats) so the people that like the most intense part of the combat could still enjoy the game in the long run without sacrificing the ability to grind a bit to overcome the parts that are too difficult for the “casual” player during the main story.

Hope you all continue enjoying the game!

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My issue with this is that attacking is something proactive. The better I time my attacks the bigger my reward in focus gain. It’s also more friendly to beginners who struggle to parry. People who can’t block. And dodging favoring lighter equip loads. On top of that parry/block/dodge is a reactive thing.

I’d make the system so, assuming this isn’t already the case, that every different weapon has different focus gain.

Let’s say you have a specific attack window. Some weapons can sneak in 3 hits, whereas another can only hit once. I’d want it then to work that each weapon roughly generates the same amount of focus in X time. X being the total animation time of the slowest weapon combo.

For rune specials to be balanced, the different weapons need to generate focus at a similar pace. This way each weapon has equal access to Rune Specials. No additive affixes where you gain focus on hit etc. If you have an affix with +20% focus gain it will now work similarly for each weapon.

Edit: spelling

Edit 2: Weapons generating focus means I have control over my focus gain, when my sole focus stems from dodge/block/parry my enemy has control over my focus bar, not me.

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134

Ironic! I found the first boss so hard, with my meager skills with a controller, to get past; so I refunded it. There was just no way to strengthen my character with what was available before reaching town.
It sounds like if I could have made it past Torn, it would have hit the point where I would have enjoyed the game, progress to the point I could enjoy the game.
It almost sounds like they built the game backwards…

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Thank you for the kind feedback! :slight_smile:

I like your summary of what creates a Souls-Like experience.

offensive actions play a little role

Haven’t ever really thought about it in that way, but couldn’t agree more. Maybe we could even enable MORE possible defensive plays? What about grappling or cover? Diversions ? Or upping the stealth game?

For a more Souls-Like feel we could also look at the other more niche mechanical options we have that rely on more strategic gameplay rather than mashing buttons… Backstabs for example?

But isn’t parrying a reward in itself ?

Currently it isn’t. Not worthwhile enough - too much risk. I mean you have to let you be hit by an attack for it to work. :upside_down_face:
Hitting the enemy at the right time may not even carry any risk at all. And taking even one single hit (ideally) get’s you really close to dying (unless you are playing a tank of course).

If parrying was a bit stronger, by making the enemy more vulnerable for example, it could be worth it baseline… But i like the approach of making it worth through item’s. - More opportunity for the two genres to merge :wink:

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Here is my take.

If I objectively summarize the issue on this topic and if I objectively look at how I described a mechanically functional Souls-like game experience(details here), the devaluation of defensive plays is the main cause of all troubles.

What happens in the situations that I have concerns about is that defensive plays loose partially or completely their purpose.

That is why @Evocator1000 's idea of rewarding defensive plays appeared to me immediately like a valid solution.

To be honest, at the very moment I wrote that it was a brilliant idea I didn’t knew how deep, for this entire system to work, it actually was.

It took about all of the exchanges that I had with all you guys the last few days up to when I’m writing those lines to figure it out but now it’s clear: the less defensive plays you have, the less Souls-like it feels.

It may sound counterintuitive but if I really think about it, it is hard to come to an other conclusion: defensive plays must be an essential part of the combat loop.

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You make valid points.

I agree, we can work with more proactive options to generate Focus as well! But they have to be kept in check. I would strongly prefer more interesting, mechanically involved proactive options to being able to spam your enemy to death!

I also totally agree with strictly balancing focus gains with weapon (or even attack-) speed, if gaining focus on hitting stays in the game. Also removing the ability to gain Focus via Rune Attacks. would be great

Some sidenotes:

If we would gain Focus through other (defensive) means,

It’s stilll your choice what kind of mechanism to focus on - that’s the beauty of it. Prefer high risk high reward? Go for parry synergy. Consistence? Wear something sturdy and Block. Hit and Run? Only wear some nice Boots and DOOODGE.

Also, you could always bait enemies into attacking, resulting in a proactive gameplay loop, if you prefer to only use Focus Moves. Otherwise you could simply attack normally until you need to defend in some way.

The more i think about the resulting gameplay loop, the better it feels in my mind - Also reminds me of real life equivalents like boxing… Wear your enemy out. Bait… Dodge/Block/Parry… Go hard for the opening, when it presents itself or you create it!

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You could, also, leave every bonus in place as they are now, and turn down the rewards.

Instead of 7 percent life on damage, that becomes 1 percent.

Instead of 13 percent focus on focus use, it becomes 2 percent.

Just by managing the numbers you can lower the feasibility of not engaging in the current close/long-range loop. Then, if you still want to try a no-close-range style, you rely more on pots.

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I know… And I’m pretty sure that you are not the only one…

To me it sadly explains why so much Souls-like attempts fail …

Most people see the difficulty, the fancy attacks and the panic dodges as the core of a Souls-like but it goes way, way, way deeper than that.

If I allowed myself to be extreme I would go as far as saying that it is everything but that.

Well…

For the rest of your latest suggestions I, for now, won’t take any position.

I have the feeling that the vision you inspired me may be the missing link for a cohesive game experience mixing both genre.

But, with that In mind, there is, first, some work to be done to convince this community that rewarding defensive plays has value and can lead to some unique and fresh game design perspectives.

But hey!!! It’s impossible until it becomes possible. :wink:

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There are surly some strange balance/difficulty spikes, i dont mind personally being overpowered at some point, but i think devs are still not rly sure which way to go with this game. Currently its more like a framework waiting to be tweaked/ fixed/ changed etc. based on ppl opinions.

Even thought Devs may have some vision for the game i dont think it’s set in stone so, we will have to just wait and see in some time where this game will land, and how it will look like.

Also i wouldnt cling so much to tags like Souls-like, ARPG, etc. - those are just very general descriptions that are a lot more than just difficulty, or specific camera view.

Cant wait personally to see its future.

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I’d go a step further, with your issue statement:

When all defensive plays are devaluated to the point where they are no longer incentivized and can be safely ignored.

Devaluating SOME defensive plays is fine in favor of the power fantasy.

:white_check_mark: Not dodging a mobs attack and instead attacking through it with a two-handed greatsword when you have enough poise.

:no_entry: Rune Spam Stun Locking a Boss.

We agree on the main issues:

  1. Defensive plays should not become obsolete, there should still be incentive.

  2. Rune Specials should be earned.

I’d just prefer focus gain to be more related to offensive actions, excluding rune specials themself. As to avoid that infinite loop of focus gain.

If they remove Focus Gain on Focus Use/Rune Special. The biggest issue is gone.

@Evocator1000

Yeah the more I think about it, focus gain on offensive plays and defensive plays should co-exist. It allows for more freedom with regards to play styles, which falls in line with Moon’s vision.

I just don’t like the idea of putting it all completely on defensive plays. Since then enemies have more control over my focus gain, rather than me.

In the end I do think it is more about tweaking numbers.

This is a video of the devs talking about how they wanted combat to feel. It should feel like how they described. Which with some builds it seems to ignore what they wanted.

Skip to 0:48.

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I agree that we agree. :wink:

I let the potential implementation discussions to you guys, there is a lot to discuss.

One of my goal was to try to understand, at the core level, why their system doesnt work as it is right now and I found a reasonable explanation.

I’ll repost my conclusions in a digestible package without the implementation suggestions that I made so everybody can be on the same page

Thank you @RomoloHero and @Evocator1000, you’ve been of invaluable help. :wink:

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I responded to edit 41 I believe :joy:

Most of my comments are still relevant though.

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Was pretty close. :yum:

Doesn’t really matter the core of what I was trying to express was already there, I think … I hope … :no_mouth: