[Moon Studio] What is the intended experience?

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142

I agree that we agree. :wink:

I let the potential implementation discussions to you guys, there is a lot to discuss.

One of my goal was to try to understand, at the core level, why their system doesnt work as it is right now and I found a reasonable explanation.

I’ll repost my conclusions in a digestible package without the implementation suggestions that I made so everybody can be on the same page

Thank you @RomoloHero and @Evocator1000, you’ve been of invaluable help. :wink:

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143

I responded to edit 41 I believe :joy:

Most of my comments are still relevant though.

144

Was pretty close. :yum:

Doesn’t really matter the core of what I was trying to express was already there, I think … I hope … :no_mouth:

145

So what you basically say is that soulslikes are defined by “defense over offense”?
Everything that tends to “rushing down your enemy quickly” is the opposite.

True, but that sounds very obvious to me but you made me think about this and i am very thankful of that :slight_smile: :

Rewarding defensive plays more than offensive ones goes a bit too far i guess.

I think its more about “risk” here.
The more risk you put in an action, the more rewarding it must be “high risk leads to high reward”.

  • Parrying is high risk for sure
  • Maybe the more close to an enemy the more “risk” you take.
  • Bow attacks are not risky at all. Currently you get too much focus on hit at distance to keep shooting endlessly.

Working with a “risk”-meter or “adrenaline”-meter which fills? hmmm … sounds doable for the distance between you an the enemy part but … need to think about that

If it would be able to identify risk correctly it could be bound to powerful effects.

Running down an enemy with a bow from far away should not give you any benefits … its powerful enough.

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146

Nice post to open some discussions. :slightly_smiling_face:

So what you basically say is that soulslikes are defined by “defense over offense”?
Everything that tends to “rushing down your enemy quickly” is the opposite.

To answer your question I want to play a mini game. :slightly_smiling_face:

We are going to explore the Souls-like genre from a mechanical perspective.

The goal is to define a combat loop:

  • This loop assumes that we play a melee build with the Block action possible.
  • This loop assumes that you at least need the equivalent in damage of 2 full successful combos to get your enemy down.
  • This loop doesn’t change if you are beginner, intermediate, advanced or pro.
  • This loop doesn’t change if you are slower or faster.

I don’t know what the conclusions are going to be but let’s find out! :yum:

Let’s define the mechanical distinctions possible:

  • [1] Actions that requires one or more inputs on press or release
  • [2] Actions that requires a control to be held
  • [3] Actions that requires a precise timing to be successful

With these definitions if I extract all the distinct actions I get that:

  • [2] Move
  • [2] Block
  • [1] Dodge
  • [3] Parry
  • [1] Attack (Anything that does damage including backstab and special abilities)
  • [1] Use Consumable (includes healing items)

Let’s say that we can categorize any action of the player with one of these 3 following types that we are going to call “intentions”:

  • Defensive (Prevent from a hit)
  • Offensive (Intention of attack or target hit)
  • Neutral (None of the above)

This is what I get:

  • Move [Defensive|Offensive|Neutral]
  • Block [Defensive]
  • Dodge [Defensive]
  • Parry [Defensive]
  • Attack [Offensive]
  • Use Consumable [Neutral]

Now let’s put it the context of a fight, knowing that some actions can’t be fired simultaneously but for a given moment in the fight they represent a piece of a set of possible actions of the same intention:

  • Move [Offensive]
  • Move [Neutral]
  • Block|Dodge|Parry|Move [Defensive]
  • Attack [Offensive]
  • Use Consumable [Neutral]

Now the combat loop:

  • Move [Neutral] and/or Use Consumable [Neutral]
  • Move [Offensive] (Closing distance)
  • Block|Dodge|Parry|Move (Moving out) [Defensive] or Attack [Offensive]
  • Move [Defensive] (Moving out if not used already)
  • Rinse and repeat

If I’ve done a “not too bad” job there are observations and conclusions to make here, I’ll let you and the crowd decide. :slightly_smiling_face:

OK, I’ll give a word: Balance. :wink:

I think its more about “risk” here.

I don’t have a definitive take on this one.

To me the reward of a risky play is the thrill of trying the play.
If it doesn’t work I pay for my stupidity and think it’s enough.
And if it works it is a reward by itself.

I don’t know if I want a specific extra feature to reward me or punish me.
And I would prefer none of it than one over the other.

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147

I get your take on risk. And i agree. Taking risk should be rewarded.

Looking at attacks - While you MAY take a risk for starting the attack you often actually REDUCE risk, firstly by staggering or applying other effects to the enemy and secondly by reducing the time you remain in combat or outnumbered, because you reduce the enemy hp.

And we also have to look at efficiency and effort. Effort should be rewarded as well imo. Attacking is arguably the least extra effort action you can do in a combat, as it directly progresses your primary goal - reducing the enemy hp.

I totally agree on balancing ranged combat the right way.

In most Souls-Like Games using ranged attacks (bow/throwing/magic dps) is balanced through

  1. It being simply not as efficient as attacking in melee - It can do less DPS or may often require more ressources than attacking in melee.
  2. It leaving you more vulnerable to enemy attacks, simply by holding it or through longer attack animations.
  3. It requiring extra effort, by making it harder to get out of or in range, because enemies are very aggressive and/or agile, can take cover or have enough range themselves. Which i think is the most fun approach and solves other problems as well.
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148

we are getting to the core of it … i like it :slight_smile:
Thanks for the write down.

Thought about this a little bit more and i think my meter idea, as you say, is kind of already implemented in the “combat loop” itself and there is no need to visualize it. Its redundant.

Rewarding the right plays is the goal then.

The reward of a risky play is the thrill of trying it? That cannot be right?
You cannot get the reward during the play/action. I think a reward must be more of a “result” at the end of the play/action => High risk leads to maybe higher dmg output, but can also be extremly punished at the same time.
The thrill is maybe your personal reward on top of that :slight_smile:

  • landing a successful hit → Reward: Hurting my enemy
  • blocking a hit → Reward: Reduce damage taken

All “on-hit” effects destroying or distorting(dont know if its the right word here, i am no native speaker) the reward system of a “real” combat process. It doesnt feel right and its rewarding at the wrong place.

I basically agree with @Evocator1000 rewarding “carefulness” more than double rewarding aggressive mindless plays.

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149

Thank you for you answer and you support. Glad to see that you enjoy the ride. :wink:

That is actually one of my favorite aspect in Souls-like is that you have all of these layers of accessibility encapsulated in the game mechanics not just a Difficulty slider in the menus. :slightly_smiling_face:

150

@Tom

Nothing to do with the discussion but I just noticed something.

You were on this post like from the first minutes of it and you contributed regularly. :hushed:

I just wanted to thank you. :wink:

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151

agree that it is about the journey.

Disagree that the journey should be 90% grind. it’s about time that devs found a way to make the journey a more natural experience.

It is not natural to farm the same areas over and over again to build your character up to allow you to proceed to the next farmable area… it just gets boring quickly.

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152

Hey everybody,

First, I want to thank you all for your support, this topic reached heights that I wasn’t expecting at all and it’s mainly because all of you contributed, meaningfully for the most part, to the conversations. :heart:

Today I want to talk a little bit about an earlier conversation that I had with some of you.

The main question was: "What needs to be done to not loose the Souls-like game combat feel ? "

I used one of @Tom 's reply to jump to the occasion and made this little analysis.

I invite you to read it:

SOULS-LIKE MECHANICAL ANALYSIS

(There is some slight edits from the original)

We are going to explore the Souls-like genre from a mechanical perspective.
The goal is to define a combat loop:

  • This loop assumes that we play a melee build with the Block action possible.
  • This loop assumes that you at least need the equivalent in damage of 2 full successful combos to get your enemy down.
  • This loop doesn’t change if you are beginner, intermediate, advanced or pro.
  • This loop doesn’t change if you are slower or faster.

I don’t know what the conclusions are going to be but let’s find out! :yum:

Let’s define the mechanical distinctions possible:

  • [1] Actions that requires one or more inputs on press or release
  • [2] Actions that requires a control to be held
  • [3] Actions that requires a precise timing to be successful

With these definitions if I extract all the distinct actions I get that:

  • [2] Move
  • [2] Block
  • [1] Dodge
  • [3] Parry
  • [1] Attack (Anything that does damage including backstab and special abilities)
  • [1] Use Consumable (includes healing items)

Let’s say that we can categorize any action of the player with one of these 3 following types that we are going to call "combat states”:

  • Defensive (Prevent from a hit)
  • Offensive (Intention of attack or target hit)
  • Neutral (None of the above)

This is what I get:

  • Move [Defensive|Offensive|Neutral]
  • Block [Defensive]
  • Dodge [Defensive]
  • Parry [Defensive]
  • Attack [Offensive]
  • Use Consumable [Neutral]

Now let’s put it in the context of a fight, knowing that some actions can’t be fired simultaneously but for a given moment in the fight they represent a piece of a set of possible actions for the same combat state:

  • Move [Offensive]
  • Move [Neutral]
  • Block|Dodge|Parry|Move [Defensive]
  • Attack [Offensive]
  • Use Consumable [Neutral]

Now the combat loop:

  • Move [Neutral] and/or Use Consumable [Neutral]
  • Move [Offensive] (Closing distance)
  • Block|Dodge|Parry|Move (Moving out) [Defensive] or Attack [Offensive]
  • Move [Defensive] (Moving out if not used already)
  • Rinse and repeat

For me, at this point, what it says, if I take my main issue with the combat experience in the later parts of the game, being what I called affectionately the the living static spamming turret syndrome is:

  • Each element needs to exist in the combat system
  • The system needs to incentivize each aspect of this loop at approximately equal measure

The questions now are, and I would like to ear your answers:

  • What is the actual current state of the game, compared to what this loop says, in the problematic sections of the experience ?
  • What meaningful changes needs to be done to get the intended experience (Souls-like combat feel) ?
  • What are the things that you don’t want to see coming that could eventually break the experience ?

I would like to ask you to keep this conversation away from any technical consideration.
My goal is to shape, with you, a vision of the core combat system for this game with what already exist up to this point.

@Astont36, @Stinkerbolle, @RomoloHero, @DankMemeGod, @Noktu, @death_the_kid, @Ketsi, @TeoH, @Tom, @Evocator1000 and anyone who wants to join the ride.

I WANT TO HEAR WHAT YOU HAVE TO SAY LOUDLY !!! :slightly_smiling_face:

Thank you for your attention, can’t wait to see your comments. :heart:

153

I love your write-up, and you reflect much of what I am thinking and have been ruminating on with the game.

Your experience of the early game sounds very similar to my takeaway. MOon Studios’ decision to bring this game to EA is precisely because they are trying to blend these different subgenres, while also evolving their own vision in a meaningful way. Design is sensitive, and they want to get it right.

I think what we are experiencing is that the early game is very much a Souls experience. As we unlock more mechanics and more of the Diablo elements come into play, the elements become more at odds with each other. The curve as you get deeper into the game swings harder towards the Diablo end with difficulty bursts.

This issue is also affecting the vision of classless character development, where the state of builds at the moment results in most blended builds feeling very much the same.

I don’t think and don’t really expect MOon to come out and give direct written statements of what they are working towards, because the reality is that these varying elements are shifting around Design Pillars that they have stated. Our feedback and how we play the game will contribute to their discussions, tweaking these systems around these Design Pillars.

With that said, we all feel the potential here and the difficulty is keeping the visceral Souls combat feel with the power scaling of the Diablo loot system.

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154

i just want to add something to the combat mechanics you didnt mention in your analysis, there is stagger mechanic so when you attack its also defensive because it prevents from a hit.
also when your character weight class is heavy you can bush enemies without making any damage but they get staggered or you can bush them out of the platform to do damage.
can consumable be also attack when you use buff on your weapon or throw bombs?

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155

I think if we get to live out our power fantasy against mobs in a loop, it’s fine. You start against a specific tier of enemies and are struggling with them. You upgrade weapons and gear and the struggle lessens. You get enchants and slot certain runes and it becomes even easier. Then the new tier of enemies come into the world and you can see how you fare against them. I think for mobs this is fine. Most of the combat loop vs them depends on your weapons, runes and playstyle. There is simply too much variance.

Now bosses are another story. They should feel the similarly for every player. You should need to conform your actions to what the boss is doing. Boss fights need to remain that soulslike feeling with a loop. Being able to parry certain moves is skill. Being able to negate certain moves with a Rune Special is being smart with your kit. The issue is when you can safely ignore the entire loop.

Conclusion

Mobs: there is simply too much variance to always maintain a combat loop. But. I don’t think that is a bad thing, let players live their power fantasy vs the mobs.

Bosses: players should adhere to mechanics of the boss to get the soulslike feeling. Overcoming a certain mechanic of a boss with a parry/rune special should be allowed and rewarded. But, it should never disrupt the entire fight.

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156

Thank you for your reply @Ketsi . :slightly_smiling_face:

The stagger mechanic doesn’t figure in the analysis because the perspective I want to have is what you do physically in the the real world.

What do you physically do when you play.

I thought that the term “mechanical” was distinctive enough to separate what happens in the real world compared to what happens on the screen and the game specific features but apparently not. :rofl:

And to be honest I don’t know what to replace it by: “mechanical physical analysis” ? :no_mouth:

I was thinking the same way as you do at the beginning then I changed it because, if the perspective is the current state of the combat, when you use a potion, the ideal moment is when the fight is in a neutral state.

I agree that I may need to be a bit more specific on the analysis. :wink:

Precious insights. :wink:

If you had one thing that you want to keep from the combat system and one thing that you would like to be removed, what would it be and why ?

157

Current State
Currently the Game offers the basic Souls-Like experience in principle. Lots of people describe it at the start. But it also offers ways to get “out of the loop”.
Namely: Focus spam and/through ressource gain on hit

Changes
It may be a bit controversial, but i think to satisfy both, the Souls-Like and ARPG playerbase, the game has to move away from the origin loop.

But not by offering shortcuts, but rather by offering alternatives and additions that can shape playstyles towards them. Ideally we try to offer options that satisfy different types of players.

These additions or alternatives can and should be enhanced through ARPG elements (and possibly should be the only targets of statboosts). This way, we keep visceral gameplay loops intact, while also enabling targetet ARPG style power fantasies. And, which is the most interesting factor encourage people to try out TRULY different playstyles, based on the items they get.

What could those additions and alternatives be?
// These are just possibilities

  • Diversions
    • Draw attention to somewhere else
  • Feints
  • Zoning
    • Creating zones where different rules apply - e.g. safe zones, status or dmg hazards, movement blocking or restrictions, shrouding, …
  • Hiding
    • Active use of stealth, may require Zoning and/or Diversions
  • Enemy Displacement
  • Weakening (reduce offensive power) / Soften (reduce defensive power)
  • Boosts
    • Shortterm (!) utility boosts, which amplify other actions, further amplifying desired playstyle
  • Stance/Guard Breaking
  • Grappling
  • Utilizing Cover
    • We already have the ability to lean on walls, why not expand on this?
    • Can synergize with Zoning
  • Repositioning
    • Already in the game, but not targetet by ARPG elements, other than weight level, which is binary

Some of these elements are already in the game, but can be scattered scarcely and are not actively addressed by itemization.

I will try to use your example of a loop to showcase the incorporation of some of these actions.

  • Move [Neutral] +/ Use Consumable [Neutral] +/ Create strategic Zone [Neutral] +/ Create diversion [Neutral] +/ Apply Boost [Neutral]
  • Create diversion [Offensive]
  • Move [Offensive] (Closing distance)
  • Feint [Offensive]
  • Break Stance/Guard [Offensive]
  • Block|Dodge|Parry|Move (Moving out) [Defensive] / Attack >[Offensive] / Grapple [Offensive] / Weaken/Soften [Offensive] / Displacing the enemy [Offensive]
  • Create diversion [Defensive] / Displacing the enemy [Defensive]
  • Move [Defensive] (Moving out if not used already)
  • Get into Cover [Defensive] / Get into Safe Zone [Defensive] / Hide [Defensive]
  • Rinse and repeat

Also Ressource Gain would have to be addressed.

  • Focus regen is fine imo (staying alive getting rewarded by focus)
  • Other ways to regain Focus should be based off of actions, that require enough risk taking to not be spammable, that ideally don’t synergize with themselves.

Possible Pitfalls

  • Focussing ARPG elements (especially scaling) on the wrong things which allow you to bypass a visceral loop completely.
  • Not utilizing, that it makes a huge difference for the combat loop if an action is slow (cannot be used while engaged with the enemy) or fast (can be used reactively)
  • Shying away from bold, new options - Wicked has the most potential out of all Souls Like/ARPGs i’ve seen so far to create interesting gameplay loops. I’d love for it to lean into that potential.
  • I think the most difficult thing to balance, while keep up a visceral loop would be the inclusion of Minions/Companions, which are a staple for most ARPGs. They can serve many different purposes and can change the loop drastically - As we have seen in Elden Ring. But i would refer to that debate and put them in the game honestly. They can be diverse and serve interesting functionality and using them is not simply spamming the enemy to death. Also it would be nice to see Moon Studios approach to them.
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158

Thank you for your reply. :slightly_smiling_face:

That’s why I like you so much @RomoloHero: you always point the things where you’re pretty sure that there going to be a tension between our perspectives and I admire that. :slightly_smiling_face:

But on this one, there is none, I can assure you, I just need to be more specific.

I know that I said somewhere that “I don’t like power fantasies”.

But, that doesn’t mean that it doesn’t have a legitimate existence in this game and I want it to be removed.

It is just that I don’t use it and I know, by experience, that if you are not careful with your overall design it can lead to some unexpected and undesirable experiences down the road.

Let me explain.

First, it’s not that I don’t like power fantasy by essence, there are some games where I don’t mind having this feeling and it actually suits and serves the overall experience.

Where and when it becomes problematic for me is when it invalidates the other play style and fantasies, especially in Souls-like games.

So how can it happen ?

Usually, by design, and it is legitimate, you want these power fantasy skills to have a high volume of damage and/or utility.

At this point, still no problem.

But then, you realize that the game experience becomes too easy.

So, as a developer with an engineer thinking way you think:

  • “It needs to be solved!”

Don’t get me wrong, I have nothing against engineers, being one myself I know that this way of thinking has its limits.

How is it usually solved ?

You start to tweak some numbers here and there, usually the enemy health bar first, and if it’s not enough you do the same for the AI and sometimes the overall game feel and mechanics.

This loop of iteration tweaks can be infinite and can lead to the point where:

  • You invalidate completely other play styles and/or fantasies, leading to the META issue that I describe here.
  • You may loose track of the core of the game, if it wasn’t its core in the first place

So what is it that I’m trying to say here ?

The way these power fantasies in No Rest For The Wicked are implemented need to serve the intended experience.

I’ll advocate here only IF the intended experience is a Souls-like game feel.

Because if they are not careful on the implementation and the usage of these power fantasy skills it can lead to a point where it breaks the initial promise.

So if had to resume all of my concerns up till now, in the shortest form possible, at the highest level, as an answer to your position, it would be:
"As a Diablo-like player, the injection of Souls-like game mechanics don’t affect negatively your experience.
But as a Souls-like player, if it is not carefully done, the injection of Diablo-like game mechanics can break my game."

What are my solutions ?

As a general guideline I would say: Focus points need to be “hardly” earned.

We must discuss about how hard it needs to be.

I’ve been thinking about 2 separate mini systems.

I don’t especially want them to be implemented but it can open some discussions.

The first one is to guarantee that you always get your power fantasy shot:

  • You always start with a filled Focus Bar
  • Any damage taken reduces the number of Focus points
  • You still need some way to refill the Focus Bar that I don’t want to think through
  • Each killed enemy refills completely the Focus Bar

The second one is to keep the focus away from the spamming strategy:

  • The only way to get Focus points is by doing damage
  • The damage done drops, in random and widely spaced spots on the ground, small spheres that you need to collect to fill the Focus bar

What matters to me the most is “Why do you do what you do?” more than “How do you do it?”.

I’m done. :slightly_smiling_face:

I’ll have a take later on on your other concerns but I think this one needed its dedicated answer. :wink:

159

@Gallowglass summed it up pretty good :+1:

The Problem:

Thats the TODO in one sentence:

–

What needs to be done:
First of all i would remove all the “Gain X on X” effects which heavily reduces the potential of OP-mechanics. Do we have a complete list with all of them for the big picture?

  • % stamina on hit
  • % focus on hit
  • % health on parry
  • % health on block
    …

These effects are rewarding actions which by itself are rewarding. Thats not the soulslike way because its not feeling “real”.
The more fantasy stuff you put on top of a natural feeling fight, the more it removes this aspect. 100% pure soulslike would be real life.

But what effects/modifieres are keepable and do not interfer the soulslike formula but also giving a little fantasy vibe? Too much realness also sucks.

  • I really like to keep potions giving you stat boosts over time. Feels real. They need to become more meaningful tho

  • Do weight affect stamina regen atm? I would like it a lot.

  • Everything that is kind of slow-paced or over-time feels natural and not detached from reality.
    – Focus over time → ok
    – Focus on hit → not ok.

  • What i also dont like are these weight affixes: % increase equip load, % reduce weight. This mixes up so much and it also does not feel good to have those affixes on. Would remove those. Feels fake to wear heavy armor with reduced weight, why? Ok i understand it opens a lot more combination variety … but maybe its achievable in an other way.

Edit: Removed some nonsense

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160

There’s great discussion going on here and I think everyone’s arriving at the same conclusion. The Visceral Combat and the ARPG experiences are exchanging time in the spotlight rather than co-existing at the same time.

I believe Tom was correct in identifying some the problematic enchantments that skew the vision for the game. Successfully removing all worry about your finite resources means you’ve also removed the Visceral Combat and entered the realm of modern day ARPGs. Methods to restoring your resources should not be easy and should restore only a modicum amount.

I believe this is a key takeaway. Wicked has the tools to change the existing paradigms of both systems, the Combat and the Itemization. If this game is to not be a simple game, similar to current ARPGs, then the Itemization needs complexity as well. This is not to say complexity for the sake of complexity (i.e. Path of Exile) but rather our items should evolve from the standard.

Special effects on gear is very commonly limited to the highest tier (commonly known as Legendary). I believe our Enchantments should stray from this, at least partially, to avoid the simple stats pitfall of problematic ones like "Focus on Damage Dealt*. There’s been a few threads about this so far that I’ll link here.

WolfieZee’s “OUR Ideas for Unique Enchantments”

“Future of Enchantments”

Psytoxin’s “Why Gems and Enchantments NEED a boost”

The current Combat systems we have are great for the visceral feeling which thankfully means there doesn’t need to be a large amount of change in this area. The problematic Enchantments are what dial this up to 11 and start creating major issues. Any benefits should be given through effort and these benefits should never fully remove difficulty such as the “X on Damage Dealt”.

4 Likes
161

jumping mechanic, instead of running off the ledge to jump i want to have more controlled way to do that.
running constantly or fast jogging when moving character instead of walking, dodge would be more responsive when you press the putton instead of release.
we could remove “crouch” and replase it with slow walking to sneak, that would give use back the walking mechanic (because our character run constantly) and also work as a offensive to sneak behind target.
instead of running attacks we could replace it with jump attacks (because we now run constantly).

i also would love to see feint arrow pointing our character direction when moving in the platform, it would help us navigate our jumps more easily.

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