[Moon Studio] What is the intended experience?

[HexTheHardcoreCasual]

The CEO can says things like “It’s not for everyone”, but this is just PR. Everyone here thinks they are the target audience. If that statement were to mean anything, the CEO would say who the game is NOT for.

My main priority is combat. You can do mostly whatever with gear, but the moment you jeopardize combat fundamentals I lose interest. If your combat is not good without fancy particles, then it isn’t good.

Wicked has good combat until the game breaks. Diablo players are OK with this and Souls players are not (generally speaking). This is the crossroads Wicked is at. Once you cross this line, it’s hard to uncross it. The expectation is that if I get build X and press button Y, I should be winning.

What combat enthusiasts are looking for is core aspects like timing, direction, stamina, weight, commitment, and other things associated with Souls combat regardless of what part of the game you’re in. Your skill should always matter and it should always matter most.

[Garrieff]

Couldn’t agree more. I think what they are trying to achieve is possible but players need to be aware of what that means for what different people want from the game. It is never going to be a hardcore souls game and it is never going to be a meta build Diablo/POE type game. I really enjoy the combat myself but the beginning section was more engaging.

[HexTheHardcoreCasual]

I really enjoy the combat myself but the beginning section was more engaging.

You’re identifying the issue correctly. The bones are great, but the stuff added to the bones, which appears to be enough gear effects to change the game fundamentally, are breaking the combat and turning it into something approaching Diablo.

[Lamni]

I can feel your passion when I read you and I like it @HexTheHardcoreCasual .

But most of us here have spent the last 3 weeks working on the subject and, sadly, and don’t think there is much else to say.

I checked your post and checked all the replies but it’s mostly things that have seen or said here already.

I also gave you a reply(my reply) .

I’ll continue to try to rally people sharing my observations by inviting them to share theirs but I would say more or less: now is the time for patience.

Unless someone comes with some new Moon Studio’s announcement or a really new and fresh perspective to open some engaging discussions.

[Garrieff]

I have been thinking the same thing. I believe most people are saying the same things but differ in how they want to maintain that feeling that they loved. I think many people are looking for a consensus, but really I don’t think there is one. My concern is that people are starting to do what they do with many new and upcoming games (Starfield is a good example) by creating in their mind what they feel they game will/should be and that is never good. I think we need, as with other games, realise it will be what it. I will be (I don’t want to say watered down but…) more of a condensed and version on both games hopefully with the better parts that we like together. I think if people get the finished product they will play it as makes sense for them. If they like grind and over powered builds they will do that and the others that like a soulslike experience will get some of that. In a lot of ways we are over analysing the game. Only because we all really love it,

[Lamni]

I hope that we will have definitive answers from Moon Studio soon.

They are the only who can get us somewhere in our discussions.

[HexTheHardcoreCasual]

…more of a condensed and version on both games hopefully with the better parts that we like together.

I think you lean into Diablo or Souls. You can’t do both. The combat in these games are on opposite sides of a spectrum. It’s like saying I want both deep and shallow combat at the same time. Or I want simple and complex itemization at the same time.

[soulzerie]

i feel like we’re forcing ourselves into creative rails, and this is a bit absurd.
this is no rest for the wicked, not dark souls or diablo. it takes certain aspects, but it’s neither of the two. it can be it’s own thing, with enough creative vision and effort.

@HexTheHardcoreCasual

I think you lean into Diablo or Souls. You can’t do both. The combat in these games are on opposite sides of a spectrum. It’s like saying I want both deep and shallow combat at the same time. Or I want simple and complex itemization at the same time.

this is what i mean. “you can’t do both” when it is neither of the two. having elements of a game does not mean you have to inherit the games’ limitations aswell.
if you told me that dark souls shouldnt have diablo mechanics or vice versa i’d agree with you, but what we are saying here is that a completely separate game that has some ties to these games should be one of the two; you understand how this is narrowing the vision for what NRFTW is?
think of it as an entirely separate game and your vision will change, believe me!
stop comparing start envisioning i say

[Astont36]

I’m sure a majority of us understand that this isn’t a souls-like nor a diablo-like, but that’s exactly what this thread is about… what is the game meant to be like? You can’t just say:

@soulzerie

this is no rest for the wicked

Then magically we all suddenly understand. We want to know what NRFTW will become.

[Lamni]

I don’t want to be confrontational but it seems that you haven’t carefully enough read the original post of this topic.

Especially where it says:

If your experience, observations and conclusions are too far from mine there is absolutely no reason to debate because there is no chance at all that my experience, observations and my conclusions even make sense to you and IT IS NORMAL.

[Patren95]

what is the game meant to be like?

As the developers have already hinted in the Showcase and Thomas reiterated in this post on X, Wicked wants to try to change things and create a new type of game. If we trust the developers and if we’re all here having paid for an Early Access, I think we all do, we can say that the game is a Wicked-like.

Let’s just give them time and space to develop and better define their vision for the game.
We all know that many elements that are part of the game now might not be in a few months. I believe the developers have a clear final goal in mind for this game.

What’s happening in this post, in my opinion, is like trying to guess what a chef is cooking based only on the ingredients they’ve put in the pot, without having the slightest idea of how they’ll be prepared or if other ingredients will be added.
While I share the enthusiasm and can’t wait to taste this delicious dish, I think we should be patient and let the chefs cook. Time will give us all the answers.

[Astont36]

Again, you can’t say “Wicked-like” cause realistically that doesn’t mean anything… as of yet.

People currently want to know the direction the game will go, and of course I’ll wait, but for some they want might want to know now before its too late. It’s always good to question and be curious of things.

[Patren95]

If the statements from the team and the CEO regarding what the game aspires to become are not sufficient, then there’s not much else to discuss.
At the current state, any definition given to the game is incorrect.
We can only say that it’s an action, adventure, RPG, but it’s neither a Souls-like nor a Diablo-like, and plausibly it will never be either of these two things.

How can something be defined with a word that doesn’t even exist yet?
And how can we expect to have that definition now when the game is still in development?
I continue to argue that expecting to know the exact direction of the game already, having access to barely 10 hours of content, composed moreover of gameplay systems that are subject to change or not yet fully integrated and balanced, is really premature and leads nowhere.

[Lamni]

I don’t really mind how anybody want to call it.

The only thing that I want to know is how it will feel when I will play it.

• Is it going to be challenging ?
• Will I need to spend my time theory crafting and checking the web to get a META build ?

Like I say in the original post:

And don’t get me wrong, I have a sincere passion for this game and I’ll play the game in both cases, but:

• In the case of a more Souls-like game feel experience, I will devour everything.
• In the case of a more Diablo-like game feel experience, I think that the Main Story may be my main and only driver.

That is why, TO ME, knowing the definitive choice in the direction is so significant.

And it will also help the development team and the community to come up with more relevant suggestions.

@Patren95

How can something be defined with a word that doesn’t even exist yet?

I want to add a little bit of perspective on this one.

Nowadays we’ve done pretty much anything possible in terms of game technical and mechanical possibilities, considering PC, consoles, standard game controllers, keyboard and mouse.

I don’t see how anyone can come and pretend that they’ve “invented” something new.

If you take a look at the last 20 years new genre are just a mix and match of already known genre and mechanics.

The only things that have meaningfully changed are the graphical fidelity and the amount of content that a game can contain.

Souls-like games actually perfectly fall in that category: there is nothing mechanically or technically new, it is just how things works with each other that differs.

And you have countless games that have tried to copy the formula but don’t get the essence of what makes it unique.

So if everything I say just above is true, the only thing that really matters, regarding any game, is how it feels when you play it, which type of experience do you get out of it, not how you name it or even how you define it.

[soulzerie]

@Astont36

We want to know what NRFTW will become.

well i dont think that will happen until the game is fully finished.
trying to put it in a creative rail is absurd; this mentality is why when we get a game that truly innovates we shit on it and then innovation is done only by smaller studios with ambitious ideas and not big producers, because people always have to put everything in a category, instead of seeing it for what it is.

[Astont36]

Honestly I’m flabbergasted by this response.

I haven’t at all tried to shit on the game, nor do I want to put it into a category, I just want a clearer understanding on which direction the game is going, or atleast have a discussion with others to get their opinions on where they hope for it to go.

I understand the actual point you are trying to make about AAA companies getting comfy but honestly you should have just left your reply with

@soulzerie

well i dont think that will happen until the game is fully finished.

Cause everything you said after kinda just feels like an attack. Saying something is wrong with my mentality regarding my current thoughts of the game. I’m questioning the game based on it’s current state, not what’s upcoming, because I don’t know what is coming. I guess curiosity really did kill the cat.

[Patren95]

I’d like to clarify that my thoughts are merely speculations based on what the CEOs have stated in some posts on X.
That being said, I believe that elements taken from the Souls and Diablo genres will never be abandoned; rather, they will be modified to create an optimal synergy between the two genres and paired with a Metroidvania exploration system.
The video games that Thomas has often mentioned in his posts are Zelda, Dark Souls/Elden Ring (Soulslike), and Diablo. I’m quite confident that NRFTW will incorporate various systems from these games.
As for the challenge offered by NRFTW, I don’t think it will be as high as that offered by a soulslike, which, in my opinion, isn’t necessarily a bad thing.

• In the case of a more Souls-like game feel experience, I will devour everything.
• In the case of a more Diablo-like game feel experience, I think that the Main Story may be my main and only driver.

Considering the words of the CEOs and what the EA currently offers, my opinion is that the game’s direction is right in the middle.

Nowadays we’ve done pretty much anything possible in terms of game technical and mechanical possibilities, considering PC, consoles, standard game controllers, keyboard and mouse.
I don’t see how anyone can come and pretend that they’ve “invented” something new.
If you take a look at the last 20 years new genre are just a mix and match of already known genre and mechanics.
The only things that have meaningfully changed are the graphical fidelity and the amount of content that a game can contain.
Souls-like games actually perfectly fall in that category: there is nothing mechanically or technically new, it is just how things works with each other that differs.

I absolutely agree with what you’re saying.
However, I don’t think that comparing the development of Dark Souls is an ideal point of reference for NRFTW.
Dark Souls owes much of its structure to Demon’s Souls, almost positioning itself as its sequel.
Do you think that if you had the opportunity to try out Demon’s Souls in its earliest version, you would have already had a clear idea of the game’s direction without knowing how it actually turned out in the market? Perhaps so, but honestly, I don’t think so.

[soulzerie]

fair, i apologize; was not my intent but i can see what you mean.

[Lamni]

We agree on most observations.

@Patren95

Do you think that if you had the opportunity to try out Demon’s Souls in its earliest version, you would have already had a clear idea of the game’s direction without knowing how it actually turned out in the market?

The real answer is “I don’t know” but something that I mentioned earlier in this topic makes me think that it needs more perspective:

This makes me think about something that I noticed between Western and Eastern game development processes.

When on the Eastern side the main philosophy is: “How little do I need to get the intended experience?”.
On the Western side it is more: “Let’s put everything inside and see what happens!”,

A kind of Bottom-Top, Top-Bottom mismatch philosophy.

If I could give an example I would give Mario(or Zelda). No matter which Mario game you take you can strip Mario out of the equation and it is still a good game because its core game design philosophy and intended experience, how you play and how it feels, is the primary focus.

I like how passionate you are @Patren95 .

[Warlan]

Reality is this is EA and they asked for feedback. It’s impossible to give proper feedback if it’s unclear what type of game they are trying to make. If they want to make a wicked like- fine. What is that exactly? Surely they have a vision. What is that vision precisely? Give us something-saying a blend of genres is not helpful to give proper feedback-especially when those genres are polar opposites. Sure that vision can change when they find things that work or don’t work but honestly the combat style changes rapidly over the course of 10 hours. Is that intended??? Does anyone know? Is the game supposed to be really easy after 10 hours?? I feel like Im here to VOLUNTEER my help but they put me in a closet and locked the key.

TO THE DEVS: HELP US HELP YOU!