“major heart surgeries” possible. Thats interesting!
So basically deep changes of the attribute/item-scaling or crafting system are possible. Everything is possible … hmm i dont know if i like that or not 
This is what this thread is entirely about really, and even my deep-dive I did…
Do the players want this game to be a power fantasy or stick to the souls-like combat?
I can go play hello kitty island when I want to feel super powerful. This game could be the opposite and actually challenge me to get better and be better.
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I believe it’s a good thing. “Major heart surgeries” would most likely occur if players find a large enough issue in the design of content. As an example, Thomas was very sure that current attributes worked for the classless fantasy but is accepting the feedback provided on that.
I want a souls-like challenge through and through (in combat at least), where equipment, enchantments and leveling don’t overpower me but instead give me a possible fighting chance.
I want a struggle, and those put up or shut up moments where in the next few seconds I’m either going to die or win that get my heart literally pumping. Those are the best.
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I love that this thread is here, this is an extremely important discussion. I hope the devs are reading.
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I agree, and realistically that’s the whole purpose behind this thread. I understand that there should be times the player should feel powerful but I don’t want it to go into the direction where its just absolute power fantasy & where there is clearly gonna be a META… otherwise it’ll just feel like a complete Diablo clone… I really want to FEEL that souls-like combat of dying but also getting better.
I discussed about some of those concerns in my own post I made.
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I mean it worked when people did it with inventory management and durability 
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I’ll start by saying that personally, if I had to choose between a power fantasy combat system and a soulslike system, I’d prefer the combat of a soulslike game.
I’ve noticed that one of the points raised at the beginning of the discussion concerns difficulty. Personally, I find that the overall difficulty of the game is okay; if you don’t rely on combinations of bonuses that trivialize the challenge, the game maintains a good level of difficulty throughout the early access experience.
I agree that the enchantment and rune systems should be rebalanced so that it’s not possible to create destructive loops like those currently achievable with certain bonus combinations. However, I’d prefer if the game didn’t push too much on the difficulty factor, as it would risk being labeled as a “Dark Souls with an isometric view”. The developers have already stated that they want to create a new type of video game with NRFTW, and to achieve this goal, it’s natural for the game to deviate from the numerous soulslike titles already on the market.
And I believe it’s for this reason that the direction of the game may not be clear at the moment. Essentially, the game is teetering between various genres while also trying to distance itself from them in search of its own identity.
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I would be fine with both Souls-like combat and power fantasy, but there must be a balance between both experiences, and a reason to explore both options. For example, the inclusion of power fantasy could create a META where realistically one is easier than the other. That, in its own right, is a challenge, ensuring that both offer unique playstyles without one being favoured over the other.
The same for builds and weapons, I don’t want one to be better than the other, I just want them to all offer something unique.
A sad truth is metas are unavoidable. What developers can and should do is minimize the distance between “off-meta” and meta.
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Making each weapon in the game unique and equally preferable to all others may indeed be an impossible challenge. Unless the game offers a rather limited number of equipment options, there will always be some level of disparity, even if minimal.
The discussion around the meta is still delicate to address because, at the moment, we don’t yet know exactly how multiplayer will be managed. Based on the descriptions provided so far, I don’t expect the open multiplayer format of a Souls game or Elden Ring, where anyone can enter your world to engage in PvP. Instead, I anticipate that realms will function more like private matches where invited players can join for both co-op and PvP. In such a context, the meta would be significantly influenced by how players choose to approach the game with their friends, allowing those seeking greater challenge to use less powerful enchantments and weapons without necessarily feeling penalized.
I agree. I think Multiplayer will work in like an arena type format. Potentially wave-based?
Also, the dev’s themselves said the combat isn’t souls-like nor a Diablo-like. They want to do their own thing… and currently at this stage we don’t have enough content to truly understand their vision.
I’m curious on whether or not they’d keep affixes for multiplayer.
White gear only seems easier to balance than tweaking every affix for multiplayer.
Also I’d like seize ground.
I agree that the usage of this very specific expression: “major heart surgeries” triggers a wide array of positive and negative sentiments.
Will see, but mostly confident that something positive can happen.
The funny thing is soul games also have alot of cheese strategies + item combinations that can help trivialize all the bosses. Its just that not as easy for normal players to find out on their own.
Legitimate reaction and observation.
What I can say about it is exactly what I said on the META discussion on @RomoloHero’s feature list topic:
"If the game has a strong META orientation it will invalidate some playstyles and/or some fantasies because the content can, and surely will, push its boundaries towards this META.
Allowing/Forcing the developers to voluntarily/artificially/ridiculously shape the content.
And it may lead to some questionable game design decisions like the fight against Malenia in Elden Ring.
And I want everybody to play their prefered playstyle and fantasy without having the feeling that they are undervalued."
Or, even worse, to have the feeling that they have to bend their knees to the META to progress in the game.
Like it arguably does now in the Crucible.
What I can add to that is that, of course, it is a real challenge to keep a game balanced the more you add features.
But if you core philosophy is to prevent these kind of extreme scenarios to happen in the first place, it becomes easier, and later on in the process a second nature, to pay attention to it, and work around solutions to alleviate the issue.
This makes me think about something that I noticed between Western and Eastern game development processes.
When on the Eastern side the main philosophy is: “How little do I need to get the intended experience?”.
On the Western side it is more: “Let’s put everything inside and see what happens!”,
A kind of Bottom-Top, Top-Bottom mismatch philosophy.
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In soulslikes difficulty often feels like …
“Impossible start which makes you surrender” → “trivialized fights against “known” enemies regardless of your equipment”. Its mostly based on your knowledge about the different enemies. You have to learn to adapt and reading the enemy. It always feels like a real fight and i think that wicked is at such a good point atm. Fighting feels really satisfying. Huge PvP potential
In diablolikes its more of a linear difficulty curve based on your gear. Bosses are often just loot drop machines. PvP is meaningless. For me the classic arpg design became more and more of a hamsterwheel. Enemy player scaling is the final nail in the coffin.
The concept is to keep you in your trance till you fatigue out. Its like running but never reaching something with the most comfort you can get to keep you happy.
A modern casinolike as you will and sometimes the machine drops you something good
I hope NRftW is not heading this direction!
I really really like the actual core of the game. So much is done right!
Keeping this direction is the hard part.
What i like to see in the end is a game with meaningful achievements, rewards, satisfying fights and a Sacrament/Home were i like to spend my time crafting, housing, farming etc.
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I hope that Sacrament my house and the improvements will also keep their value throughout the game. Would be horrible if sacraments degenerates to a storage chest with some vendors.
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The Realm idea with multiplayer in mind could be a game changer. Async playing with your friends on your own realm in an arpg with that quality? Crazy good! The scaling potential on this one is unlimited.
Thomas Mahler said in an interview that they plan for a player to offer things for sale. Maybe you own a real store in the end.
But if you have a real store it must be possible to open your realm for other players than your allowed friends? With friends you trade mostly on the fly.
What if it would be possible to enter somebodies realm to browse there store offers? Maybe there is an option for public or private realms? Questions over questions… -
I also love that QoL improvements are build by the player e.g. Upgrading the rookery for an easier access to the community chest. Housing in general. Want more of that.
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I like the idea that harder enemies conquer earlier areas. Player enemy scaling the right way. Just raising the monster level is lazy.
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I like to feel that some earlier enemies are becoming trivial … Feeling progress is so important to keep a meaningful connection to the game and your character
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Keep the difficulty or make it even harder. Twins were a joke. Darak was pretty good for the first one which had 2 phases. Echo Knight is a really good challenge. All that can be balanced out easily i guess.
I hope that in the end there is a long adventure ahead of every starting character. Many and challenging boss fights with or without your friends.
I hope for many good crucible ideas to make it more interesting and connected to the story. E.g. crucible only drops, crucible quests where you have to get very deep
And because i like GrimDawn so much:
- I would looove to see optional roguelike dungeons like in GrimDawn with its own personality, drops and bosses and a harder difficulty in comparison to the main storyline.
- Maybe its possible to add a additional character development layer like the devotion system in GrimDawn. The devotion system lets the player earn devotion points by restoring shrines found throughout the game world, and spend the devotion points to unlock various bonuses and abilities from a number of constellations.
Such a great and motivating system. The constellations all have there own personality and its very satisfying to complete one or to find the best path. This has nothing to do with a skill-tree … its an overall stat supportive feature to finetune your character.
Thats it for now.
See you in the forums
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Oh!!! I missed this bit and I’ll jump on it. 
To add some perspective I would say that becoming better doesn’t mean that you don’t play the same game.
You just play it at a higher level and I agree with you.
But even at a higher level, the mechanical requirements should still be the same:
- Move to close the distance
- Dodge|Parry if necessary
- Backstab|Attack|Take damage
- Move out
- Heal if necessary
Rinse and repeat.
Notice how offensive actions play a little role.
It is when this mechanical dance requirement is minimized or disappear that we can start to say that it is not the same game anymore, and it becomes legitimate to address some concerns.
And some parts of this game now, fall in that category.
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I’d add to that the occasional rune special, blocking and maybe even stagger stacking.
Ideally we’d use multiple punishment windows to build up enough focus for a rune special. The buildup part should consist out of multiple instances.
For the rest I agree with you. The core combat loop should mostly stay the same, even if it differs depending on game style.
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