First Preview of our Class System

Wicked General
169

I completely disagree w/ what you said, and if you can’t put it politely it means to me you really don’t care about what other people think (which is fine, but there are consequences)…
but thank you for linking that tweet from Mahler, you’ve helped me realize something: I also disagree w/ him on how he is approaching all this… here some major points:

“..players automatically assume that a Level20 character will just naturally be stronger than a Level1..” yeah well, why would they not? this is true to virtually all games out there, RPGs or not…

“In an attribute system, your character is defined by how you spend your attribute points..” that is a legacy system, based on table-top RPGs (namely D&D), but which/what attribute matters for each build is based on the particular rule set any given game employs.. for example: in many RGP titles, even if your main weapon scales w/ STR, investment in DEX still can provide ‘utility’ effects (those that in NRftW, Mahler defines as: “..supporter attributes like health, stamina, focus or equip load..”)… every game needs to “teach” its players how their particular systems work, especially when deviating from the norm…

every innovation needs to tread the line of being similar/familiar enough while bringing novelty… particularly when you are trying to please a large number of people…

now, I’m not saying that by dropping the attribute system, in favor of a novel class system, he is wrong… in fact is his game and he should know what fits best their vision (he says so himself, “..we knew this since Early Access Launch..”

what I AM saying is, blaming the players in an umbrella statement is generally not a good idea… why? working for over a decade exclusively w/ design (and over 2 decades before that as an engineer) has taught me that if you design something most people don’t get it, either you are not conveying it clearly enough, or your design style sucks…
(note: I don’t have access to data, nor know what “..a lot of players..” means to Mahler, so I can’t really say how big this issue is/was, what I do know is playing games for over 4 decades I’ve learned that if not careful, one can in fact “brick” their chars in RPGs, but also learned playing NRftW that here, investing in stamina is not as crucial as having an attribute especially allocated for it indirectly informs players, usually called inference)

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170

It’s good that the attribute system is changing, if it’s accompanied with more clarity.

Concepts like diminishing returns or even the exact details of returns per point are extremely opaque as they currently exist in this game. I’ve seen builds with 30 stamina, and if you run 20 stamina, you can barely tell the difference after one full attack sequence.

Pick and choose features honestly just seems better than a gradual numbers allocation. With the features, developers can always ensure said class feature/trait is substantial/meaningful instead of wasteful.

It’s also honestly easier to tune, because they don’t have to account for the variety of permutations when a person complains their shield plate build is not working for x or y reason, and you don’t know what their mainstant/hp/stam/equip load investments are.

The classes will come with more standardization and less room for accidental inefficiency.

171

I wouldn’t say transparency is always the best approach… in fact, FromSoft soul’s games are usually pretty obscure about many mechanics, and exploring/testing is a great part of the game loop and appeal… but for that a game needs consistency, as for NRftW, being EA, that won’t be there, if even possible at all right now…
my previous post might give the wrong impression since I’m stressing the points I disagree w/ Mahler, but make no mistake, I trust him and his team, I like the game they’re coming up w/, and will still play (and probably enjoy) even if they change stuff around…
feedback is great an all, but devs should feel free (of pressure) to make whatever the game they want… as long as they come to terms w/ the fact somethings are more popular than others…

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173

where is PLATE + WANDS ??
so we are going from being limited to what weapons can be used together (cant use DEX weapons on INT build now) to being even more restrictive to one weapon type and armour type?

I want to have the freedom to make my own build, not to be limited by classes, so unless those can be somehow combined, aka PLATE + WANDS without losing 90% of scaling/power, im not interested

174

yeah it’s crazy this is brought up as a topic, and it still has such a long ways to go to even be realized

175

I agree that it’s a bit disappointing. It might means that instead of having continuous improvement on the current skill or class system, we’ll have to live with it as it is for a longer time. It sounds like moving back from beta to alpha on the character building topic.
Sure, the game is already in a (very) good shape on many aspects. But build variety is not there yet. It’s not a matter of trust about the game capabilities to get better. It’s just that it might take a lot of time.
I don’t see myself grinding the game using a temporary system that will be fully revamped. I was initially surprised and excited by the long list of upcoming changes. Until I realized sunddenly that now it was for 1.0…
I’m sure that there are many things planned to be released in the upcoming patches. But honestly, the class system is one of the main pillar of a RPG game…

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176

yes… unless… if they’ve been working on said system for a long time, testing, and close to having a better system almost ready… Mahler did mention they knew from the beginning of EA…
ultimately there is no way to know until peeps have a hands-on… unfortunately…

177

While we seem to have to wait for 1.0 release for the system. It is still good that we get the information and not get blind sided, and I rather wait longer for this and let it cook. It also shows they don’t wanna rush things again AND we have the multiplayer update coming our way as well.

178

It’s always better to have info than not, I agree. Otherwise, everyone would be giving feedback on a system that is going to change anyway. It just sucks that it’s not until full release of the game years from now, probably.

179

also, a key piece of information many seem to be missing is: Mahler specifically mentioned PTR… which means they won’t just drop a major system overhaul out of the blue without measuring player reactions… (or at least is how I “read” into their communications, dunno)

180

My two cents for this is: classes should be a starting point from which beginning to build a character, not closed classes. There must be some lore explanation for it too. And some classes should have some passives like +5% more health or +10% resistance to X element.

Does this game want to be a souls-like or a diablo-like? Why would classes be an advantage for players? Have these questions been asked in the studio?

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181

It wants to be neither.

People keep trying to force the soulslike when it’s been stated it will not be a soulslike or typical diablo/poe either.

It will just grab some system inspiration and give it its Moon coat of painting.

Every time Mahler gives an interview, he calls Ori their Mario and this game their Zelda. Zelda is not a soulslike or Diablo style game.

So more than anything, it is an action adventure with rpg elements.

And while it may seem disappointing to have to wait for 1.0 for this, what could people possibly expect?

40+ classes with unique weapons and traits and skills, requiring their corresponding new animations, vfx, and design budget.

It’s a large amount of work they can’t possibly finish in a couple of months.

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182

Of course, it’s going to take a lot of resources and time, but since people here are kind of impatient, this is going to be interesting to watch lol

183

but we don’t know that… I mean, only they [devs] do…

still it is helpful to compare internally (players comparing not so helpful, but will always happen irregardless),
if they want to be neither, comparing is a way to guarantee they don’t end up too close… if they are actively trying to avoid, which I don’t think they are… Mahler has stated being inspired by both, in 1 way or another…

I don’t think when Mahler says “NRftW is their Zelda”, he’s saying this game is Zelda style… just comparing studios’ milestones/achievements… (as opposed to making statements about souls-like or diablo like comparisons)…
but also, “..Every time Mahler gives an interview..” is kinda of a huge exaggeration… I don’t recall he stressing that that frequently… he might have mentioned what? 2-3 times?? LOL

anyway, is undeniable this game borrows from other games, even if expanding a bit:
diablo-like in so far it resembles isometric (I hate using this term, cuz technically it is wrong for most games that are called isometric), apart from that almost nothing in common (yeah, loot arguably, but there are so many games w/ very similar yet different systems, very blurry I would call it)
souls like, well, undeniable combat and core game loop mechanics are heavily inspired by the souls franchise, if you have played any of the souls games this is more than apparent…

I would say is an Action RPG w/ borrowed mechanics from other ARPGs, plus some other stuff to top it off… LOL cuz is literally what this is… XD

I don’t see that many more animations being necessary, I mean, for brand new weapons, sure, but why would they need reanimate stuff already in the game, I personally don’t think different classes using the same exact weapon would have a different move set… I could be wrong tho, since they haven’t disclosed in detail, but you too are just speculating here…

184

Well, of course I’m speculating how long it will take them and what the work entails. Unfortunately, I don’t work as an artist/designer at Moon LOL.

And trust me, I’m just as sick with impatience and anxious to try out the new system as anyone else. This long wait for it feels bad, but it’s just unavoidable.

So, let’s hope they can deliver sooner than our expectations, but either way it’s for the best. The current attribute system is really boring to me, and I like more structured identity when playing archetypes and classes, so this change is right up my alley.

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185

hi, Thomas. Will u consider about Iron Fan and Iron Umbrella? It’s more Oriental traditional type. They all really cool.
Both offensive （closed） and defensive（opened） capabilities. Both can be designed as TWO-HAND or ONEOFF-HAND weapon.
Refenced SHALLOW (A film shot by Zhang Yimou)

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2ab4e14f53504ae8b2e162f2fabc545e640×426 37.9 KB

186

It’s been already explained multiple times that classes aren’t rigid. And this question is moot because even in souls, classes are rigid. You got either dex, str, quality, int, fth, arc/luck. Nearly every build works the same exact way which is determined by weapon scaling and 1h/2h in case of anything that involves str. You might get auxiliary stats (like attunement or equip load), but mostly it’s “level vigor, then level scaling stats”. It also doesn’t help that scalings is really bad early on, so leveling your scaling stat is terrible idea early anyway. By the time you can do proper hybrid builds, you’re already way past the endgame.

Even if we had rigid classes with class change possibility, then we’d just have the same exact system as we do in nearly every souls games with a very clear optimal path for attributes.

187

Instead of having so many classes based on attribute system variations that will eventually be discarded, I think it might be better to have fewer class options, but with the possibility of choosing from a wider range of weapon and armor types—some of which could overlap with other classes. Additionally, I would love for each class to offer a variety of unique abilities. This would allow for a distinct experience, even when using the same weapon.

Lastly—and this is probably just wishful thinking—I would love for the game to include shapeshifting classes, such as a druid. A transformed state could function as a class-specific weapon with its own model and moveset. I think the Sacrament introduction scene, with its dark fantasy atmosphere, is practically screaming for werewolves!

188

Instead of classes i would like to see a talent tree for stats:
with this you can achieve more depth to the gameplay, more rpg feeling and more meaning to stats.
For example: every attribute treshold you can apply one point on a perk, perks don’t give us directly more damage but support the player in a way like you want to do with classes.
You can develop a perk to make light evasion longer for example or disappear for 2 seconds after successfuly dodged an attack ( 20 point in dex), a skill to stomp the shield on the ground, briefly increase the duration of a block and consume less resource (20 point in strength), with faith you could do a sort of magic shield, converting for like 2 seconds damage in focus and take less damage, and so on. What do you think?

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189

Am I the only one who prefer current free system instead of class restrictions? Or maybe I didn’t understand classes right?

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