Uniformity vs. Variety: Please Bring Back RNG Stats on Weapons!

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Quite a few people on Discord wanted RNG to be removed from weapons. Their arguments were always the same: it was seen as bad for balancing (having the same sword deal a different amount of damage, or offering different focus gain or stamina cost). Others found it frustrating and “not fun” to grind even more just to get the “perfect” weapon.

At some point, Thomas/Moon gave in - or was convinced - but as a result, all randomness was completely removed from weapons. Suddenly, every Scimitar had exactly the same stats. Even worse, entire weapon categories were harmonized too - meaning, for example, that all Curved Swords ended up with the exact same stats!

Sure, the same group of people who had complained before was likely very happy with this change. But from the perspective of exploration, realism, and long-term motivation, making all weapons (e.g., all Scimitars) - or worse, all weapon categories (like Curved Swords) - exactly the same stat-wise was, in my opinion, a real step backwards.

I’m not one of those “min-maxing” players. I loved that one Scimitar could be different from another… just like in real life. After the change, a lot of my motivation to find gear was gone.
“Oh… a Scimitar… who cares – it’s the same as the other 12 I’ve already found. But wait… what’s that… a Cerulean Blade – never mind, it’s just another Curved Sword… they’re (stat-wise) all the same now.”

Why not group all stats in the RNG - so that Damage, Focus gain, Stamina cost, and Weight vary together, for better or worse? Maybe even introduce gear crafting grades, like “poorly crafted”, “average quality”, “well crafted”, and “masterfully crafted”, and tie RNG to these grades? This would even fit perfectly with the crafting system. Using a top-notch (silver?) blacksmith’s hammer? Great – that will increase your chance of crafting a better weapon.

Or just reduce the RNG range. Instead of 5–10 Focus gain, make it 8–10. That would still lead to some variety. Or - if nothing else - keep the harmonized weapon values, but not across entire weapon categories! Why should a Rusty Kopesh have exactly the same stats as a Scimitar? After all, they still have different move sets!

Maybe the old RNG system wasn’t perfect. Maybe the differences were too large, or the wrong stats were randomized. But harmonizing everything was, to me, a missed opportunity.

“Details matter,” as Jack Reacher used to say :wink:. And details like these, to me, make the difference between a great game and an outstanding one.

Or, as someone on Discord put it:
“Everything has to be balanced.”
How about: “It just needs to be fun”?

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I really hated the old system and I’m glad it’s gone. The weapons weren’t “different” they were just randomly stronger or weaker they didn’t change the way you play, and it was annoying to find a weapon with good enchantments that however had bad stats or vice versa.

There is Good RNG and bad RNG, It depends on how it is implemented.
An example of good RNG are enemies that make different attacks and do not always use the same attacks in the same situations, there are rules that regulate almost every behavior based on the attacks already used and the position in relation to the objective, but you cannot determine with certainty what they will do, but the player can always react in time and is therefore in control of the situation if he plays well, this can lead to gameplay variety.

Another RNG system that works well is the gems, you find some but they are never the same at the beginning of the game so you have to adapt, but in the late game you have access to all the gems and the player can decide what to do. But even in the early game it is the player who decides how to use the gems not the Game.

The previous system gave slightly worse or better stats to your weapon, and the player just had to accept the nerf if it was on a rare weapon that he liked.

Do you want to have two sabers that do different things?
Give them different enchantments, different gems and different runes, and use them with different rings or armor, and it is in your power to do so

A single enchantment adds more differences than the old randomized stats!
Do you want to use less stamina per hit? There’s a new gem that does just that.
Want more focus gain? Add a focus gem to your helmet or an enchantment somewhere.

Diversity has not been removed but is Now in your control

Do you want the game to randomly choose your builds? You can still do it, whenever you find a weapon with strong enchantments use it instead of your old weapon.

I hope I’ve convinced you on this one, anyway nice post even if I strongly disagree with your opinion.

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Thx @Lombix_4.

I perfectly understand what you mean – and you’re not alone with this point of view, that’s for sure. I guess, in the end, it’s a matter of priorities.

It seems to me we approach this topic at different points in time.

For you, when it comes to weapons, finding the right one seems to be more of an annoying prerequisite. The fun starts afterwards – then comes the really interesting tweaking and tinkering part: enchantments, runes, crystals.

As for me, the important part starts much earlier. This “what can I build upon this foundation” part that’s so important to you kicks in much later for me… and isn’t that important after all. I’m not eager to try out different weapons or to assemble lots of different builds. That’s just not my priority. In 180 hours, I’ve ended up using maybe 3 or 4 different weapons… most of the time just sticking with one of them. Same goes for the runes. I never tried all those crazy combinations the game actually offers. I found a good combo, a good way to play, and that’s fine for me.

What excites me much, much more is the exploration, looting, and reward part. Standing in front of a big chest, I turn into a little kid again – thrilled about what “goodies” and “treasures” might be inside. That’s why variety is so important to me. And that’s why it makes me sad to see that weapons have become a “homogenized mush” – especially the weapon categories.

Or to put it another way: for you, it seems, weapons are just a means to an end – for me, weapons are the end.
I hope that makes sense.

I totally agree with you that there’s good RNG and bad RNG. And the way RNG worked for weapons was probably more on the bad side – it was just too much RNG, the ranges were too big, the RNG stats were not linked to each other - one got better, another got worse. But think about it for a moment – wouldn’t it be much cooler not just to find a Scimitar, but maybe, after hours of play, to find a Scimitar with – reasonable – different stats and even a changed flavor text? Or some kind of cool suffix or tag like ‘cold-forged’?
My armor is a mix of stuff from ‘Tanth’, like the ‘Tanth Captain Stalkers’. So why not have a ‘Tanth Scimitar’ with (slightly) different stats? That’s the missed opportunity I see.

So maybe my title was a bit misleading. Instead of “Please Bring Back RNG Stats on Weapons”, I should have called it “Please Bring Back – Reasonable – RNG Stats on Weapons.”

I don’t want a RNG mess either. But I would love to see variety through reasonable RNG.

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i didnt actually read the OP, but thomas said they intend to bring back something that fits the role of this system and affects the base stats of the weapons in a way that isnt bad and unfair

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I actually read the OP post and i regret it

But if you would like to see “crafting grades”, id like to see it like Terraria weapon affixes maybe, but with affixes a bit more “balanced” with eachother overall. Like there could be a modifier that gives you a bit reduced attack speed but makes it a bit larger, another that gives it bonus attack speed but less damage, another that is just a small flat bonus to a bunch of stats, maybe a dedicated “bad” affix, stuff like that. And you could get your weapon reforged somewhere to randomly roll a new affix

I would like to see the chase and “min-maxing” be about more interesting stuff and goals, not the shallowest rng roulettes ever, specially not one that can cause so much damage to the player experience like the old variance (think of the new players that got stuck with a weapon that has 3 focus gain and much lower damage)

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Now I think I understand better what you are saying.

No, the problem was the lack of player ability to interact with the system, Reducing the rages does not solve the problem at most it makes it worse because if there is no significant difference in range between two things there is no reason to have a difference in the first place

This is a good idea but only if there is a way to get the variations without relying only on the RNG

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Honestly, we’re not talking about rocket science :wink: – if players nowadays lack the ability to interact with a super-basic RNG weapon stat system, where like four stats are determined randomly (within certain limits), I don’t have much hope left for humanity :winking_face_with_tongue:

I don’t see any lack of interaction – a bunch of people were just pissed off that virtually the same weapon with the same name (same name → very important detail!) could have different stats, especially because that makes min-maxing a weapon, of course, much harder.

From a mathematical point of view, I totally agree with you. But don’t forget, not every player is just interested in stats and mathematics. People spend hilarious amounts of money in other games just to get a special skin for a weapon without gaining any advantages or bonuses.

If the stat RNG range becomes too small, it won’t have a significant effect on gameplay in terms of dealing more damage or giving you more Focus – but it will still make a difference when it comes to variety.

A Scimitar with 5 points in Stamina Cost still differs from a Scimitar with 7 points in Stamina Cost. For some people, this little difference might be absolutely pointless – even counterproductive (e.g., for min-maxing). For others – like me – it positively influences long-term motivation to loot gear even after 180 hours of gameplay. What a pleasant surprise it would be to suddenly find even a slightly different Scimitar.

Yes, again, I have to agree. Relying only on RNG for variety – especially on totally unreasonable, wild RNG, where four stats like Damage, Stamina Cost, Focus Gain, and Weight are determined independently, resulting in absurd combinations like low Damage (bad), low Focus Gain (bad), low Stamina Cost (good), and low Weight (good) → “what the hell?” – is most probably not a good approach. But solving this misbehavior by harmonizing all stats – even across weapon categories – felt, to me, like quite a cheap solution and a wasted opportunity.
However… we’re still in EA, so who knows how all this is going to turn out :crossed_fingers:

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I’m NOT referring to the mental faculties of the players which do not allow them to understand the system xD.
But the fact that the old system is closed to external interventions, and the player has to accept things as they are, and has no control or way to deal with the system.

I’m not referring to differences in math but differences in gameplay, if a statistical change doesn’t affect the way you play the game, by itself, it’s “Noise”, and therefore there’s no point in it existing.

I would like it if they added cosmetic variations, now if you want to look good you always have to model your armor according to your weapon, because there are no aesthetics variations of the same weapon.

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:laughing:

But doesn’t that apply to 99% of all game mechanics in all games? In the end, the game designers come up with something, and players have to accept it. Or am I missing something / still not understanding you?

Well, this seems to be the main difference in our points of view – and that’s okay. Even small changes, to me, can still have an impact on the gaming experience. That’s why I quoted Jack Reacher in the first place – “Details matter” (to me).

And here we meet again :wink: So we don’t just need a Tanth Captain Scimitar with – of course – “slightly” different / reasonable RNG stats, but also with some visual variations :grin: :+1: That would be a jackpot, of course.

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Hmmm.

Nah.

I don’t want slot machines in my RPG. If someone is bored and needs more time to burn, get a spouse, have kids, work on your career, and then we’ll see if they still have chase time assuming they don’t shamelessly offload all childcare onto their spouse.

Games should not be designed to be an infinite/lengthy treadmill. Some longevity like build variety and frequent content updates are fine, if the bar is quality. We don’t need chaff and Asian style grind/homework in games.

There are a ton of different weapons with drastically different movesets and runes to try and gear around. I don’t need to add another layer of RNG (acquiring the weapon, then the runes, and then the RNG stats on top) on top of the system.

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No , in most cases even if the game gives rules and limitations to the player, BUT the player is in control (if he’s good enough), and can make more choices not only based on what is strongest and most efficient thing to do, but also based on what he likes the most.

The RNG can give more options but if the player cannot interact with the options then they are a restriction of the game and not fun possibilities to explore.

RNG can be interesting to give the player a situation to adapt to, it can be used for Eraly Game/Mid Game or for fast Run bsaed games, were the loot is not permanent like a roguelike. But in late game the player needs control over his build to realize his ideas.

“the game designers come up with something, and players have to accept it.”
The player is given problems and limitations, but he must not passively accept them, he must find a way to overcome the problems. And not only that, the possible solutions must also be fun, and the effort must be balanced with the reward.

That’s why there were all those people complaining about not being able to get the perfect weapon.

In the old system to solve the problem and get the perfect weapon you needed to farm for hours and hours without any guarantee to get a weapon with slightly less weight, slightly more focus gain, slightly less stamina consumption.

It was a non-fun process for a reward that wasn’t worth it, and so they either gave up or, caught up in the mania of perfectionism, became very frustrated, and once they reached their goal they weren’t satisfied.

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Very interesting topic.

I think that previous system where each weapon base stat was independently variable was not a good fit. It would be completely ok for an ARPG game, with proper grindy endgame, but Wicked seems to not strive to be such a game.

On the other hand it is a bit disappointing that ground loot is largely irrelevant. For players that know what they want during each playthrough, there is literally no reason to pick stuff up once they get the pieces they want to use. There is no ARPG incentive of randomized stats, because all base stats are the same and enchantments can be easily rerolled with fallen embers. There is no classical RPG incentive too, where items dropped in next zone are more powerful, because tiers can be upgraded easily by npcs.

All of this results in lack of interesting item progression, you just pick stuff up once on the beach and go with it to the end of the game. I think it is one of the biggest weaknesses of Wicked.

It would be a nice touch to add decent amount of randomness here and there. Like adding a different item qualities (broken, fine, polished, superior) that have different base stats and are drop only. Fine quality should be very common and polished should be a bit more rare to create a good feeling when found. Game should be balanced around having a mix of fine and polished gear, so some “players” would not complain and others would have a nice little grind for superior gear that should be decently rare. But in such case current item enchantment system should go in favor of reworked gem system to reduce what i call “multiple stacked requirements”, where first you have to find an item and then Eleanor has to graciously enchant it into a plagued item. It would be infuriating when you find already rare item, with rare superior quality and Eleanor proceeds to brick it with blue enchantment.

Can i bounce this ball? Do not play video games if you have no time for them.

Path of Exile 2 sold over 1 million copies in preorders, so i would say there is a need for such games.

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Sure, you can play that ball, if you want to alienate most of the adult market, you know the demographic with most disposable income.

You bring up PoE, but I doubt most people who like PoE would want that experience for Wicked, be it the Soulslike fanatics or the casual ARPG fanatics, given that Diablo still outsold PoE (and Diablo 4 is also a terrible game despite the review bombs on PoE).

The trend in games has been toward flexibility and casual play. The market isn’t just games for the single 20-30 yo guy playing 5-6+ hours a day anymore. You can still design content that they can enjoy, with density of quality content. But the designed content should not be timesinks for timesinks sake.

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Ok, I think I understand you now. But whether you call it “the lack of player ability to interact with the system” or put it more clearly like “That’s why there were all those people complaining about not being able to get the perfect weapon,” the information remains the same to me. You’re talking about one specific player group – those players who desperately want (or even need) to get “the perfect weapon.”

For most of these players (that’s of course just an assumption, but that’s how it feels to me), the main goal is to reach endgame – often as quickly as possible – and, of course, to find the “best” build (which is often necessary to succeed in the endgame. So yes, many games even encourage this playstyle!).

But my belief is that not every player approaches games this way. I actually believe it’s a minority – though an active, loud, and energetic one.

Still, there are others. Many others. These “others” don’t feel the need to rush. They don’t need to be the best – or to have the best gear, build, or whatever. Maybe you could call this group “casual gamers,” though I’m not sure that really captures the full picture. However – for this group “the journey is the destination”.

But by now, we’re on the same page anyway :handshake: For the players you’re talking about the old system was – of course – a real pain in the a**. It’s exactly like Zenith said:

I guess this group would probably cope better with a “reasonable RNG” system, like StivenHunt proposed:

But in the end, it all depends on what kind of game Moon/Thomas wants NRFTW to be – and of course, which player group it’s for.

I’m not alone in this, although “my people” (unfortunately) tend to be more passive, more quiet. And, as you might have already noticed, we live in a world where the loudest voices prevail :expressionless_face:

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Thanks for your Input, @StivenHunt!
110% agreement - you got what I meant!
“You’re my man!” :wink: :+1:

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@Zenith I have a spouse, a house, kids, a cat, and some kind of career… and because of that, not much time.
But your conclusion was wrong – that doesn’t make me want to rush through the game even more. It just makes me play the game to simply have fun with it. And, believe it or not, a lot of that fun actually comes from finding cool, different loot – even if ‘different’ meant a crappy, unbalanced, out-of-control RNG-based weapon stat system (I take what I get :wink:). But it’s ok if you don’t agree with that approach. You’re just playing the game differently than I am.

And by the way:

Adding more variety to games doesn’t necessarily turn them into timesinks.
Why are there different armors? Different movesets? Different food, resources… even different enemies?
You seem to accept 95 layers of randomness – but you’re not willing to accept a 96th one because ‘enough is enough’?
Come on…

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It was a great move to remove RNG on weapon stats. It is not about finding a perfect weapon, it is more about finding a useable weapon in the first place. Because a 2H weapon with whooping 5 Focus gain was a really cool find.
Weapon droprates atm did not support additional RNG layers.
Furthemore, even though weapons from the same class show the same damage numbers, they do not the same damage, because all animations come with their own damage multipliers thus weapons are all different enough in the end.

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Nobody is happy with the random armor acquisition, there are countless threads about it.

And food/ingredients are not random, outside animal parts which people also complain about, as this patch made upgrades significantly more annoying by adding rare animal part requirements.

We have been praising changes which reduce the slot machine aspect and give more deterministic routes.

But for those of you who enjoy the RNG, I don’t oppose RNG ingredient/armor/weapon drops, so long as they are not the only way or the most optimal method of acquiring items.

So long as a deterministic/crafting route alternative that’s not comparatively worse exists, fine.

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First of all, I want to thank all of you guys for this exciting discussion – many cool inputs and arguments were brought up. One thing’s for sure: we all love the game, even if we don’t agree on every point of view!

After reading through several earlier posts, I mostly agree with this by now. The “untamed” old RNG system really was out of control. Even though I personally didn’t have a huge issue with it, I totally understand the frustration, the unpredictability, and the unnecessarily prolonged grind it caused. So we’re settled on that.

Still, that doesn’t mean a better system wouldn’t have been possible. Instead, the crappy RNG was simply removed. Period. To me, that feels like a really pragmatic and fast, but also very cheap solution. Like „Let’s just harmonize everything… weapons… weapon categories… done“. Sorry, but this feels a bit like „no brain, no pain.“ to me :roll_eyes:

I understand and can agree with that… although it’s a tricky one. This might even be the root cause of our entire discussion. Ultimately, it’s all about finding the right balance.

From my understanding, almost every single ARPG – starting with Diablo 1, the mother of all ARPGs – has always been built around RNG loot. Even other genres, like extraction shooters, are basically founded on RNG mechanics.

But the more RNG there is in a game, the more exhausting it becomes to truly “customize” your character – especially when you’re aiming for specific builds, sets, and all that. I understand that some players are looking for predictability. Determinism. “What’s the point of having armor sets in a game if I have to play for 1000 hours to find all the armor pieces, right?”. It’s hard to argue with this. Unfortunately, RNG is the exact opposite of predictability.

So a middle ground is needed. That’s the real challenge of game design, I believe. That’s true balancing – not giving all Curved Swords exactly the same stats :winking_face_with_tongue: