Of course the moment anyone is called out on their baseless and emotionally charged criticism, suddenly theyre not here for it.
I’ll be damned to read through his drivel which has been assessed by many others as “dogshit” to use his vernacular. But I distinctly remeber his false claims on how erratic EK supposedly is. Well guess what, I and many others have made guides on that particular encounter which shows how much he doesn’t know.
You would do well to take your own advice; drop the emotions. You are wearing them on your sleeve and it shows.
Also, you don’t get to demand engagement. Others might respond to that, but I don’t.
You either want feedback…or you only want feedback in a manner and form you approve of. You don’t get to claim both. Catto’s post is unprofessional and grating to read at times, but he put thought and substance into it. If you are prepared to throw out all feedback that you don’t personally like you are going to end up alone.
this entire thread is a mess and I love it
Most of Catto’s criticisms are factually wrong. Are we reading the same post?
He’s talking about WALKING around during combat. Has he not heard of holding down the run button?
He’s talking about there being a 1 potion limit. Whaaattt???
He then goes on to say souls combat is stupid in the first place and people don’t play souls games for the combat. Correct! They play it for collecting animals with red and white balls. Oh wait…
He thinks you are stuck with 1 rune attack all the way. He doesn’t know you can add runes to weapons. Seriously? Maybe it’s a lost in translation thing but there are LOTS of videos around if you can’t figure stuff out.
Moonslice is correct, this thread is a mess!
Eh, I would say that some of his criticisms are factually wrong, but most are correct.
The rune part is wrong. (But overall rune attacks aren’t very fun).
“1 potion” is sarcrasm.
Walking speed is indeed useless. And if you have to sprint all the time, might as well make it the default.
Souls combat system is incredibly primitive. Thankfully Wicked expands it a bit.
What else…
Level ups and ichors don’t feel good.
Backstab is inconsistent. Actual enemy back is often not where 3d model back is.
Attribute system and strong vertical progression conflicts with souls-like combat.
Bosses are fine for one playthrough, but not for endgame grind. Not enough variation in behaviour (though more bosses would solve that).
Endgame in general is too rigid and predictable. More content would help, but right now it gets stale fast.
Idk, I feel that Catto is about 90% correct.
90% correct? Is 2+2 = 5 in your world?
So now it’s sarcasm as an excuse?
And what combat is not primitive? It’s certainly more complex than any ARPG. So sorry, ya wrong.
I guess you both have issues with backstab? Not a problem for me.
Your other comments are negated by this being early access and only 1/4th of the map is revealed.
The only thing I agreed with him was the parry system. So I guess he’s 10% right. Lolz.
Thanks for helping me recontextualize NRFTW as a Dark Zelda. I’ve been at odds with where I can categorize this game for a while. “Stylistic Isometric Dark Souls” and “PoE2 where the vision is actualized” was the best I can come up with myself lol.
Ya, I was in the same boat.
Stalking @thomasmahler on twitter helped me understand a lot more about the game and the inspirations behind it.
There’s also a post here featuring an entire collection of interviews and random Q&A posts from him on various platforms.
If interested:
All of what you said seems, in short, point to another completely different game. Not all games have to be similar the one another and not every game should exclusively be an arpg, it can be a bit of everything and still be enjoyable. Like no rest for the wicked. I was not expecting much but I know a good game when I play/see one and I have been playing video games since my early childhood. I have played all the games you mentioned and sekiro was the only one I truly care about until no rest for the wicked and they’re completely different from one another and I still enjoy them equally. One game you play lacks something I’m looking for and I found that in this game. Not every game is for everyone because everyone has their own flavor favorite when it comes to games.
And the game is in early access! It feels incomplete despite the pouring content it has, just enjoy it for what it is and stop comparing. I’m just as mystified as Thomas as well because look at undertale, I was suffering so much yawning while playing that game and can’t understand how overwhelmingly positive it is.
All that you mentioned is very ok to me and I have no complaints other than it is unfinished, the crucible needs work, and the loot being totally on random, but this are just sprinkles on a canvass that is still much enjoyable despite being unfinished. Just play another game, man. Lol. At the end of the day, it’s a game and they accomplished what they set out to do! FUN!! you’re so cringe and so critical you’re pathetic lol
It’s been pointed out in other comments that NRFTW might be inspired by Zelda series rather than Souls. I haven’t played BoTW, but looking at combat gameplay it does look similar. So perhaps comparisons to Souls combat were pointless.
Souls combat IS primitive though. Roll, attack, roll, attack. Or parry instead of rolling. For a better combat take a look at Sekiro (same studio, different approach). Wicked’s combat is also better than in Souls series in my opinion.
So the only point I want to respond to (that is relevant to the game) is that of early access.
The game does indeed lack content. And my complaints might be resolved by adding more.
That still doesn’t change the fact that both crucible and pestilence outbreaks are badly designed.
Lack of meaningful choices. Lack of variation. Every crucible run, every pestilence run is basically the same.
I was going to read everything but I had to stop at the combat part even if you had better feedback after. Your bad faith and lack of knowledge/skill told me what I needed to know.
From the get-go it was pretty clear this game is not fast paced BUT…
You can change your speed with different weight classes. There’s a bunch of different weapons/abilities that can close the gap and do ranged attacks. You can have perks for stamina cost reduction. You can put points in stamina. Stamina management is a strategic part of the combat. Backstabbing is easy AF after dodging in opposite direction. etc etc etc…
And btw, this game doesn’t need to be one thing or another. It can be its own thing even when using well known mechanics.
This post cropped up in my ‘real’ mail OP as part of ‘popular topics’. It is one of the most intelligently thought-out, sanest posts I’ve yet read regarding this game. Although I have seen some very good, similar feedback in the non-gush reviews of the game on Steam.
That’s a lot of effort in that post, so I’m not going to single out one element, except to say you 100% nailed it with the chore-like nature of the game’s ideas. Why would I want something to emulate all the cheerless busywork in my own life?
It beggars belief that anyone with a stressful job, a house to maintain/upgrade and numerous mundane spinning plates to keep afloat would the same thing in video game format.
You’re bang on as well about the combat and the parry windows, the sluggishness of the MC and the high agility of all the various enemies.
Some obviously like it, but there’s not enough of them given the numbers playing the game, and given the question of the MD that you’ve respectfully answered here in a highly constructive manner.
If they want to sell this, they should be thinking bigger than ‘difficulty modes’, because the ‘challenge’ is not the issue - it’s the chores, the phoney challenge. Again, some clearly like it. Why not let them farm for food and be constantly gimped in terms of mobility? Among all the other comparible misery that one experiences in the game.
Then have a mode that’s just more aligned with actually fun games such as POE2. Allow for interesting skill choices on level up - not weight load increase or stamina and other banal stats.
Ditch the stamina. Definitely ditch the dexterity penalities. Crank up the enemy AI and HP, and give the MC multiple skills/combos (recharable via mana flask) so the combat isn’t the workmanlike repetition it is right now.
Add more enemies, more activity, more creative ways to engage with the combat.
This mode would be for people who’ve already spent 9-5 listening to the whining of everyone and anyone and having to slog through it all, thanklessly, until home time, where the chores begin anew. I’m that person. I want something that’s entertainment and not reminscant of work.
Anyway, who knows where they’re going with it. I just signed up to wholeheartedly agree with this. It’s spot on.
I don’t really care if I never play this game again.
Well Sekiro is considered a Souls game as well. Yes I get they deviated a bit but it’s really just heavily focused on parry and weapon on weapon combat. I don’t think that would work in a game with bows, wands, staves and slow moving 2-handed weapons.
I still don’t think it’s primitive compared to other RPGs. I mean what RPG has more complex combat than a Souls game? Baldurs Gate 3? Diablo 4? In the genre of RPGs I think (at least based on user input) that Souls games are the more complex. Thomas has said the goal is to be like a fighting game. To me those are the pinnacle of (melee) combat. What other RPG subtype even comes close to that? And Thomas says there is a big combat update coming at some point. Let’s hope it’s good!
100% agree the game lacks content. It’s EA. But what I’ve played so far is very fun. I think crucible is underwhelming but I can see it developing to be much better in the future. Just got to let them cook.
The Pestilence needs work. Again, the concept is fine, the execution is a little off. But honestly, I think most of ARPGs endgame ‘mechanics’ are underwhelming. D4 is hot garbage. POE2 meh. I’ve heard POE is great but I think that’s from a perspective of a loot grinder, which I am not. I suspect it’s just more 1 button mashing through maps like all of the other ARPGs. At least Pestilence gives me engaging combat, even if I am 5 levels higher.
Hmm.. I’d argue the complexity of combat in most games like PoE (1 & 2) comes from the theory-crafting around the skill tree, runes, abilities, weapon skills, ect.
In that respect, NRftW falls short.
Bonus: Once you get the Ring of Determination, you can respec out of everything except health and power.
You can now solo anything in the game, without ever needing to “engage” in the complex mechanics of “parry, dodge or die”.
There’s also the “one button smash” of plague splatter (practically clearing entire rooms) with a button press.
All that said, I am looking forward to seeing how the combat evolves in future updates.
So long as they don’t nerf the fun outta the game.
You have some few good points, but some of the critique is just not realistic.
You can’t have POE2 level of build depth, Hades level rouge-like gameplay crucible and Dark souls player agency all combined in 1 game. And maybe it doesn’t have to be, NRFW is very unique game, it’s not perfect, but I am enjoying it very much and I can’t wait for 1.0
I agree that parry and backstab should be buffed, right now it’s just too hard to use. Other than that combat is fine, they just need to give more access to runes. Some gap closing runes and evasive strike runes are game changer for melee.
I have to agree that plague ichor mehanic is bad, boring and I don’t see the point of limiting inventory slots at all.
And bosses really could use some more attack variety, almost all of them have the same annoying spawn purple shit on the ground (echo knight has blue, and Darek yellow, but mehanic is the same).
I actually think you got some valid points. But wish you had learned about AI, and had put your WoT through it to:
Short your text, you are overexplaning yourself, maybe to convince yourself?
Refining the language. The “dogshit” and other “power” words do not enforce your point, but rather take away from it.
Clean up in your structure.
This could just help you when making such long posts 
Your schoolyard tactics doesn’t work on me: “I’m not emotional, you’re emotional”. Pathetic attempt at a retort.
I don’t give a flying sewers rats behind about your “engagement”.
My aim was to call you out on your nonsense and you capitulated easier than toilet paper.
You happen to be on the same emotional spectrum as the OP, with the same delusions of grandeur, and that’s why you agree with him. Trust me, I wear nothing my sleeves, you on the hand, are thinner than see-through film.
Have a nice day, don’t critique things you don’t understand.
Theory crafting and building is not combat. It impacts your combat but is not combat. It’s like saying people building airplanes and tanks are doing combat.
They arent, they are doing the building and theory crafting. Actual combat has its own sets of skill and complexity required.
I agree the theory crafting is much more complex. But like this games endless winter, people will just use lightning spear… it’s not hard to follow a guide…
I agree broken builds are a problem (in both games). There shouldn’t be a Nuclear Bomb build.
Interesting..
With co-op and PvEvP coming to NRftW, I’m curious.. how would you view the “complexity” of combat in games like Guild Wars 2, Final Fantasy 14 and other MMORPGs.
*Specifically combat revolving around challenging content likes raids, epic dungeons, world bosses, ect.
Personally, I’d argue those are far more complex than any souls game.
However that may be an apples to oranges comparison.
*Considering we’ll be limited to interacting with only a few players instead of dozens or hundreds.
Perhaps our “multiplayer” content will be more like Nightreign?
Carbot is awesome.
To me MMORPGs are an apples to oranges comparison. But honestly the last MMORPGs I played were all text based. I have watched plenty of videos though and it seems to be people are mostly standing around spamming spells. That’s not complexity. I see it mostly as requirements of having enough tanking, healing and DPS. But on each players personal combat within that raid is probably just spamming spells. I don’t think they are parrying, dodging and healing. Waiting for opening then attacking. There likely isn’t a stamina problem. Heck most players don’t even have to heal. They have someone in the party heal for them. Are they worried about being staggered? Do they need to stagger the boss?
I have no idea how the coop and PVP will be in this game. I hope it’s really good. If not you don’t interact with it. I suspect they will have balancing problems for PVP. The coop PVE should be easier to balance. But there are already multiple builds that make the game too easy so maybe not…