Everything and mostly the combat system is wrong

Hi Moon Studios,
I just played NRFW for a little bit, I have already tons of negative feedback, but before that, let me just start with something positive.

I love the emphasis on a good story, even if there is no indication yet whether the story will be good. They say no one cares about story in ARPGs, and they are somehow right, because all ARPG stories from Diablo to Grim Dawn, Last Epoch and Path of Exile are just terrible. Either the writing itself is already bad, or the delivery is also bad (lore notes, self-indulgent writing etc), npcs doesnt talk to the character like they are characters, npc talk to themselves and serves to deliver lore dumps only, there is nothing to care about the npcs in all these ARPGs.

The cinematic environment lighting and the slight elevation of landscape traversing is also very nice, makes the world more alive and not static like all existing arpgsā€¦

I also love the idea of not making combat like current arpgs. All current aprgs suffer from a similar problem, the lack of need for positioning and no active defense mechanism like block. Without the need for positioning, all of them devolve into holding down 1 button dps match, tanking damage and hoping boss die before you do. All good action games, good arpgs combat that are not solely isometric like Nioh 2 and Final Fantasy Strangers of Paradise have a need for positioning and active defense system like fast dodge and block/parry.

I want to see this game succeed to provide a fresh and interesting direction in the arpg genre. That said, as far as good things go, thatā€™s about it.

> The BAD:

Character Design is just so ugly.
I donā€™t understand who decided that the male proportion needs to have needle legs and popeye hands. In comparison to all arpgs, NRFW has the UGLIEST character, itā€™s like the ugly sonic when it first released. You donā€™t have to go full anime faces, but you also dont have to go full this ugly. Why even bother to provide options when the options are just ugly, uglier and even uglier? Do Devs seriously dont understand why people spend hours on a CC and transmog? Definitely not to ugly-fy their characters. Do you know why people love Hades? Because their characters have nice proportions and are gorgeous. This design seriously has 0 marketing appeal. 1/10

Default movement is unbearably slow
Why make sprinting separate when most people end up sprinting across the world anyway as it doesnt take stamina at all? This is such a stupidly mind boggling decision, it makes the entirety of the game into a slog pace. Movement should always be fast and sprinting, if any, even faster. This is an arpg, not a walking simulator.

Additional unnecessary movement features in an arpg.
If the movement mechanic doesnā€™t serve as a usable mechanic in ā€œactionā€, then itā€™s a useless movement mechanic. Iā€™ve already mentioned that the movement is slow, then thereā€™s another slow crouch stealth? How much content are going to utilize this crouch stealth mechanic? Is it going to be fun to do in the long run? Absolutely useless and a time waster.
Platforming with no real natural jump? Why do devs add these kind of stupid unnecessary road blocks to their game?
Worse of them all, sidle? is this an arpg or is this a slow deliberate stealth game? All these movement features are entirely useless and have never ever been a good feature in any action game. At the end of the day, even stealth in Sekiro doesnt contribute at all to the longevity and replayability of the game. And Sekiro is not an arpg, is a one time stealth action game, if you are doing an arpg with plans of continuous content updates, then this whole sidle, stealth, platforming things are just putting down your game.

Copying Souls-like, just because (huge read)
Obviously, I love Fromsoft games, played almost all of them and tried a few souls-like too. From all the entirety of souls-like that are good, thereā€™s only Lies of P and Nioh 2 worth a mention. Lies of P, being almost a carbon of Souls mechanic 1 to 1, even down to the general gameplay, and Nioh 2, a totally different beast on its own with full combo sets, having the souls-like mechanics only at a very surface level. Every other souls-like are mostly terrible, the worst being their souls mechanic in their game, and yes even Remnant 2, excellent gameplay throughout, the worst being the souls mechanic that is unnecessary in such a game, making everything a slog.
What is your goal here? A souls like or an "Action"rpg? Do you think people play souls like because they are super excited about playing it slow? Or is it not because of the entire mysterious exploration and encountering unknown beast and try beating it with your very limited capabilities?
Not every game needs to be a souls-like and definitely not an ā€œisometric arpgā€. Everytime my stamina is out, and im retreating for it to recover, itā€™s all just pointless action downtime, and strangely enough, with the slow pce of the walk and isometric view, your combat is even more sluggish than a Souls game.
Developers these days seem to have their creativity dried up and so afraid to find out whatā€™s fun and copy souls slow paced combat just because.
Check out the arpg scene, what do you think they like? Slow un-cancelable full commit attacks that is limited to 4 strikes then pause due to stamina? If you have asked old Wolcen players, many of them will have asked ā€œis action cancel finally implemented?ā€ Do you get why they ask this? Because action downtime is NEVER fun. Early Diablo 4 metrics, shown that most players stack up ā€œcooldown reductionā€ affixes for their build, do you even understand why? Because action downtime is NEVER fun.
Check out the Action genre scene? What do you think if excellent game like Hades have limited Stamina for attacks, evade and block? Do you think it will be as good? Has there been ANY action game that is using a Souls-like formula and was popular and loved by the action community? ZERO. Because if any of you know the action genre scene, a souls combat mechanic is not a shining beacon in the action genre. Oh, Nioh 2 is one? thatā€™s where you are wrong, Nioh has an entire mechanic called Flux that is dedicated to reclaiming your stamina with every action, and when you are high skill enough with practice, You can practically do continuous combo with zero downtime because your stamina never runs out.
Your combat system, while having a good idea, doesnā€™t hit the highs of either genre but in fact felt worse because itā€™s a mish mash of both. I play PoE , Grim Dawn, Diablo, Nioh, DMC, Souls series & Elden Ring, NRFW is at the bottom list, itā€™s everything unfun put together. Slow, sluggish, limited, not fluid. It feels bad when fighting 1 to 1 enemy, absolutely garbage when trying to fight mobs like loot arpgs.
Instead of me just complaining how absolutely bad the combat system is, let me give you an advice, ditch the entire ā€œSouls-likeā€ system, in fact ditch the entire Souls like mindset, itā€™s a brain rot for developers. It is not suited for isometric view, it will NEVER be suited for an arpg with content/seasonal updates.
Look at the latest isometric arpg with Souls-like combat, Achilles: Legends Untold, is that what you want your games to be? If yes, then enjoy the low sales in the future.
In fact look to isometric action games like Hades, Warm Snow, find what and why it is engaging and implement it in NRFW (hint: itā€™s build variety). You may not want their max high level speed style of gameplay, but you can learn a thing or two on why itā€™s fun with no downtime, and how it can also be implemented when fighting enemy waves. If you are not thinking about enemy waves, then scrap your idea of loot arpg, every loot arpg wants enemy waves, not constant 1 to 1 combat, enemy density is often a complain in all loot arpgs. Your entire combat system needs a whole revamp. And also, donā€™t make actions uncancellable.

Parry & Guard as seperate button
I wonā€™t delve to much into this as I have written a whole lot above. In short, itā€™s another very stupid idea. There will be only 2 outcome, usually it will either end up parrying be too risky and not rewarding enough, or parrying being too useful and ppl forgo blocking altogether, it always end up that way, and you will end up endless balancing each other but achieving none. Look at the successful ones like Nioh, itā€™s just timely guard, good timing and it turns to parry, same with Sekiro, a failed parry ends up into guard. Look at Souls, how many people use parry as a regular mechanic? Almost none, because itā€™s too risky and people end up just tanking with heavy shield or dodge. So you end up balancing this mechanic and having an entire user base forgoing it, what a nice effort isnā€™t it?

Mini map
This is not a 3d 3rd person, you can never see the front and memorize layout. Please have size/zoom adjustable minimap on corner, or minimap overlay. If you are worried people will just look at overlay and not appreciate all the nice designs in your environment, then put a tracking system like Monster Hunter World or the isometric game The Ascent. Where you can put a pin on the map and a button will trigger a nice subtle direction to go without the player constantly switching to see map.

Build Variety
All arpg need to have this, all good successful arpg needs to have depth for people to theory crafting. I love melee and will likely play melee all the way, but you must provide enough theory crafting to allow people go full range or any other style other than generic melee. Path of Exile has probably the worst and most cancerous grind and crafting in any game, you dont have to go there, but why do PoE have just dedicated fanbase that keeps on playing the updates? Itā€™s because of all arpgs, PoE nailed down the theory crafting down to a T. If you have played it, you know other arpgs in the market doesnt even come close. This is one of the most important part for replayability outside a good combat mechanic. Have many wacky items that do wacky things, have many items that do unique interactions, let people combine and produce crazy, wacky, interesting results, and worry about balance later. PoE as of now has 1000+ unique items.

Summary:
Itā€™s a long write, there very little positive i can write about your game, but dont feel cynical and think i want your game to fail, because in fact I want the opposite, that your game succeed and provide a fresh fun experience in the loot arpg genre, a great arpg without having to grind like cancer in PoE, and i think, you just have the potential. But potential just remain potential until itā€™s realized, as of now, as a long time player or arpg, rpg, and action games, your direction is just all wrong and felt like garbage, played an hour and i immediately felt terrible.
Please donā€™t take lightly about points like Ugly Character design, all the points here i donā€™t just mention it casually. And itā€™s better to revamp and refine it till its good before releasing it. Because once you release it fully without hitting the truly good features, there might be no way to make a come back for the game. Good luck, hope you really nail it in the genre.

5 Likes

The character is designed that way so you can see the movesets, it would be a little hard to read your enemies without those long arms. See it as artistic license, not everything must be Bayoneta or Lara Croft. Diablo doesnt need that because the combat is fast paced button mashing plowing through hordes of enemies, thats not the intension here.
Yes the combat is souls like, and no the game wont change that, learn to parry, to block, memorize your enemies movesets and watch that stamina.

4 Likes

Movement can always be portrayed through the animation, or even voice cues. You canā€™t tell people that itā€™s an artistic license, all the people will see is just one thing: ugly. NRFW is not the only game in the genre that has action that you need to read and dodge, but it certainly has the ugliest character.

If the entire game has no waves of enemies and just max of multiple 3 enemies etc, then it will fail as loot arpg, simple as that.
If the game will just remain souls like and sluggish as such, itā€™s their own decision. I just have to drop the game and not recommend it to those who are looking for a loot arpg and isometric action game simple as that. No one has to memorize and play a moveset of a terrible combat.

You donā€™t realize that NRFW is not the only game in the space is it? And that other games of each genre has itā€™s highs and lows already known? I even pointed out a pretty similar isometric action title that is Achilles Legends Untold. If they believe that NFRW is absolutely going at the right direction and gonna rock, good for them, I ainā€™t stopping them.

But as a fan of action, souls and arpg, thereā€™s nothing right in the current combination of combat system, just a sluggish mess of everything. I know the action fans doesnā€™t want this slow souls like style, i know the arpg fans are not looking for slow souls like style either, so who are they catering to? Souls fans? to play an isometric souls like?

It will just be sad to see another attempt at arpg fail because devs stay stubborn and fail to implement anything that the fans of the genre like.

I disagree with almost everything said in the original post. ; )

There is very little in this game that I donā€™t like. I find Wicked to be unique and different (in a good way) from any other game. Even if that difference is simply the combination of different genres and mechanisms. I believe the combination is done very well rather than just mashing them together for the sake of doing so.

In short, I would say that if there are so many things that arenā€™t liked, then Wicked is simply not the game to play. Changing all of these things would devalue it as the game that it is and what itā€™s trying to accomplish.

The point about combining ARPG elements with souls-like elements, rather than making this a poor game, is what makes it a fantastic game. Itā€™s the hybrid nature that makes it so fun and ā€œcomfy.ā€

If you want to play something thatā€™s just an ARPG or something thatā€™s just a soul-like, then do that.

Iā€™ve played several of various genres of games, and liked many of them. But I canā€™t say how much I love this game for the exact reason that it does combine all of those elements into such a great hybrid.

Also, I like the quirky character design, with strangely out-of-proportion body parts. It makes me laugh. Itā€™s fun. And it also demonstrates that itā€™s a fantasy world where people donā€™t look the same as us humans.

8 Likes

I have to dissagree with most what you describe here.

First of all, if I understand the idea of the game correctly this should be an isometric-soulslike RPG. And as such I think it makes kay features right. Fights feel very tactical and precise, with heavy emphasis on the weapons and thier movesets; while gear has random stats to boost the power of your character.
I do not understand your complaint about fluid combat, because most attacks are very well telegraohed.
I also appreciate this game because it is not Diablo or PoE, because I really grew tired of slaughtering hordes of enemies. As such I cannot support the claim that the game is too slow. There is gear as well as skills to increase your combat mobility, all while the ā€œoverall speedā€ stat is bugged and doesnā€™t do anything. (It could break the game if it would work though).
If you truly played most of the souls games as you claim, then you should know that managing your stamina is one of tactical combat components of this genre, and if you wish to spam more attacks or dodges, then invest more into stammina and less in you power related stats.
Mini-map is totally not required.

All that said I do agree with some points.
Parrieng is way too risky and most of the time not wort it, except you are a giga chad player.
Build variety is indeed very limmited. Maybe it is because there are simply not enough stats or gear in the game to explore (or even work in the first place, as it seems most of the boni on uniques are brocken atm.) However, I find there wasnā€™t much of build variety in Elden Ring either, since everything revolves around the weapon you use and how much glass cannon you can handle.

3 Likes

I think the argument of ā€œyou donā€™t like these mechanics? then play another gameā€ is a very poor argument that offers not improvement at all.
I did play arpgs, and I do play Souls games, I do not expect arpgsā€™ smashing waves of enemies to be in Souls and would not judge them on that merit.

The catch all term of ā€œsouls likeā€ is also a poor explanation of mechanics. The limited stamina for every action, the limited flasks, a simple dodge and block mechanics. Those work for Souls games because of what the game tries to deliver, an unexpected undead overcoming insurmountable chanllenges, itā€™s not trying to be super human Ninja Gaiden. Souls game does not thrive on itā€™s combat system alone but whole multitude of factors.

So obviously I went to check on NRFW for their so called interesting ideas of combinign loot arpgs with a more deliberate combat than button mashing, and of course as described above, it fails on all fronts. Definitely good for you if you find it perfect for you.

But are these mechanics good mechanics for a ā€œlive serviceā€ loot arpg games? Can you name any successful one? You really think a crouch slow crawl system is going to be the defining factor of continuous fun on seasonal content? Maybe you do, but I and certainly the crowd of existing arpgs live service of Diablo, and PoE wonā€™t.

Iā€™m glad you like so many of the game features, even on the character design, this is a perfect game for you. But I showed those designs in multiple discord servers, no one says ā€œitā€™s fineā€. Iā€™m sure somewhere within the Sonic Movie studio, some people also confidently think the Sonic design is fine until it was shown to the public and everyone thinks itā€™s ugly.

But of course, if the developers think its cool, they are more thank welcome to stay on course.

I have never ever insisted that this game has to be like diablo or poe, in fact if you read carefully, i even mentioned that im glad itā€™s not poe. But you canā€™t deny that poe has got something right, being the only successful running live service arpg for a decade. So if moon studios gonna talk the big talk of ā€œinnovating the arpg genreā€, then they better deliver better in those fronts than PoE.

I know what Souls combat is, what i pointed out was how bad tacking that system into an isometric game that is geared towards a ā€œlive serviceā€ loot arpg genre. Souls combat has never been the defining factor of the game series, it doesnt have constant live service updates. In fact if you have played till Elden Ring, you would have known people has gotten tired of the Souls combat formula, that the developers have to spice it up by using ā€œdelayedā€ attacks because otherwise everything is instantly readable and dodged. Souls expansion updates have always been carried by the new mysterious environments and secrets to explore, not its combat. Hence it works as big expansion, but not seasonal live service.

Fluid combat has been done by many games like Hades, Warm Snow, Wizard of Legends, these are isometric action in the genre. Are you saying these combats have no tactics? Of course they have, but they are not slow and sluggish like NRFW, neither do they have pointless jumping obstacles and platforming and crouching. You donā€™t have to reach their speed in terms of combat, but their combat has no ā€œdowntimeā€ of strafing and retreating just because you have no stamina. Which is why these games have insane replay values.
If NRFW wants to make a single solo adventure rpg like Ori, sure, this definitely could work, and some like @Sintactical will find it perfect even, but for a live service? Nah, donā€™t be too haughty to think they can do it when many have failed and only PoE has survived, however niche you think PoE is. You must at least understand and grasp what mechanics in PoE is good in replayability.
Then you must understand why people keep on replaying those isometric action roguelikes. Is it the random generation etc? I canā€™t be sure, but I can be sure that all those have no sluggish movement and combat at all, in fact none in that genre that thrived has movements as sluggish as NFRW.

Again, if developers really think these features they made are so great and innovative, they can always ignore me feedback and keep moving forward. But evidence like Achilles: Legends Untold can already serve as what their fate might be if they stick to the system.

PoE carved a space for itself with its complex crafting and build creation mechanics. Day to day gameplay remains mindless 1 skill spam to kill hordes of enemies, Bosses are great though.

Not sure what you mean with ā€œsluggish movementā€. I play keyboard and mouse only, and after some time I found controlls that suit me. At this point I have to add that the controlls could be even better as not all mouse buttons can be used atm.

ā€œRollcatcherā€ yeah, those can be infuriating, untill you memorize it like any other attack.
If you struggle with stamina, then invest more points into it, use gear to reduce stamina costs or gain stamina recovery.

1 Like

I tried to respond to each item specifically. However, from the entire post I did get the feeling that you didnā€™t play far enough into the game. Since some of your points are overturned with what combat turns into.

That said, I agree with some things and disagree on other things.

Edit: in case this causes confusion: Fluidity in combat for me is the dance between player and enemy. It needs to be a harmony and responsive in nature.

Character Design

The character design is something different from what people are used to. So, I can understand not everyone liking it. I didnā€™t like the midget character design in Enshrouded, for example.

That said I do appreciate them making diverse male and female characterā€™s rather than ā€˜ā€™modernā€™ā€™ day androgynous characters. Male characters are masculine and female characters are feminine, I love this approach.

Default Movement

Nope, there are people who like to roleplay (rp) walk; like myself.

Additional Movement Options

Hard disagree on the stealth element. It adds roleplay for those who want to stealth up to characters and assassinate them. Having this option is therefore not useless.

Platforming without jump key. Iā€™m not used to the isometric view and have poor depth perception. It took me quite some time to adept to jumping with shift. And even then it is hard to see where you are jumping to. Once I figured out I could jump with Shift or Alt and my mouse, things were a bit easier. Would have been nice if this was in a tutorial.

I donā€™t mind the sidle. That said we donā€™t use it that often. Would be cool if it had more opportunities to be used in the maps. Or if we could sidle above enemies and then drop down to execute them, that would be cool.

Souls-like

The more you play games with the same specific genre the more you refine your opinion on the genre about what you do and donā€™t like. I have a similar thing with CRPGs, I like the ones that require more knowledge and skill. Whereas, easier games that will ease people into the genre, I tend to dislike. So, I can kinda see where you are getting at. However, if this was a souls game I wouldnā€™t have bothered. It depends on prior experience with the genre, as a lot of the ā€˜ā€™Soulsā€™ā€™ crowd seems to dislike various things with the game.

I partially agree with you on slow combat. However, only in the early game, it feels a bit too slow. Donā€™t get me wrong I like the visceral feeling, but, I think the combat flow can be improved upon by being a bit quicker. Maybe having more attack options with various stamina costs. The further you get stamina becomes a non-issue, however. And, from what I have seen people seem to invest between 3-9 points out of 87 currently available. So I donā€™t think it is that bad.

I donā€™t know Wolcen, but I do agree that downtime isnā€™t fun. Now, I do think you havenā€™t reached the later stages of the game. Since those incentive Focus-Neutral Builds that abuse Rune Spam to Stagger Bosses into infinity. So, eventually you go from downtime to perma spam. I donā€™t think either is good. Runes should add more depth to the gameplay. Where you interweave runes into your attacks and use them in reaction to the enemy. I personally would like it to play similar to V Rising. So, runes have a 6-9/9-12 second cooldown, have more mechanical distinctions, cost no focus and can thus be used more freely and with more purpose. I have a lot of extensive posts about this, so I wonā€™t go into too much depth here.

I agree with combat needing to be more fluid, I have other posts where I mention this:

The first part of:

And:

Parry & Block

I disagree here since they serve a different purpose. I can block ranged attacks but I canā€™t parry them. I can block multiple attacks at the same time but I canā€™t parry multiple attacks at the same time.

Mini Map

They plan on having you replay the same area several times. And because of that I internalized the map layouts to a T. Iā€™m at a point where I donā€™t use the map at all.

Build Variety

100% agreed. Currently we have a Meta of Rune spam and a severe lack of variety in builds. Again, 100% with you on more depth and theory crafting builds. I come from CRPGs like Wrath of The Righteous and Rogue Trader. So I love those aspects to the point where I make entire excel sheets with graphs. For this to happen, we need more affixes, which they are working on, we need a talent tree, which they are working on, we need a more in depth enchanting system, which is likely to happen. And we need the rune system changed to incentivize different types of builds beyond rune spam. I want each of my 4 runes for different purposes and use them accordingly.

Other

I find it quite odd that you say the game direction is all wrong and is garbage. I find it refreshing to have an ARPG focus on immersive elements. Since all games you mentioned and most other ARPGs severely lack that.

Calling the characters ugly and saying they need a revamp is a bit silly. For once we get a unique character design. On top of that we get masculine man and feminine woman.

Reply 1

Hard disagree on the waves of enemies. If what you want becomes reality the game will fail itā€™s original promise of visceral combat as it implies combat is meaningless and should be a power fantasy.

I personally think they should look at V Rising in terms of their rune system and Vampire Survivors for enchanting (the levelups).

I agree with you on the balancing of Souls vs ARPG in terms of combat. It starts out as a Soulslike, but a bit too slow and then spirals down into a 1-Button spam ARPG.

Reply 2

Agreed that in terms of combat several aspects need to come better together than right now. For me, again, it is runes. Disagree with you on stamina as it becomes trivial later on. Would be better if it served more purpose and runes for melee users cost stamina instead of focus maybe.

Again, I think you havenā€™t delved deep enough into the game to see the ARPG elements of combat taking over the Soulslike elements.

Showing it into multiple discord servers and saying people dislike X is a meaningless argument. Someone else can show X in their discord and people will love X.

Reply 3

Again, agree on combat fluidity. Would love it to be more like V Rising with short cooldowns on abilities that are used in a reactive manner.

4 Likes

I didnt even have to read everything, first souls like is not just reacting to the enemy movement, the arms are important, hence the size the devs made them, the attack patern must be clear or you wont see it coming.
Next you apparently bought this game thinking it was another D4, its not, there are no hordes of enemies to be fought, and of course the loot system is not the same, who wants a bazillion combinations, even D4 fans didnt want that, i watch a video on the latest patch and they changed the afixxes, it was just too much.
A lot of people came here and on steam dissapointed this game was not Diablo, i say you already have a lot of games like Diablo, you mentioned some yourself, Last Epoch, Grim Dawn 2 is on the makings and so is Titan Quest 2, just dont try to change this one in to one more diablo clone.

1 Like

From the bottom of my heart. Thank you. This is about as close as ANYONE has got to the exact feeling I have for the game, but well articulated. Every section of your review is near identical to how I feel, including Hades and Warm Snow. MY GOD those games are GOOOOOOD. Look to hades and Warm Snow PLS Devs. Your game is unique but the fun needs attention.

I LOVE No Rest, Itā€™s so darn good but where itā€™s not, and it has points, itā€™s not good by a long shot.

I wanted a game where Iā€™d enjoy 200 weapons and runes and endless variations but found myself playing the same weapon and build for 90% of the game. Once you hit end-game there is VERY little reason to change or do anything different as the incentive to do so is heavily limited to the grind for perfect RNG weapons and armor. Too much time and effort is placed into single stat or single weapon/armor builds. We need means to create a constant change in gameplay, every, single, day.

In the end I want a game that is so well balanced that there is not a single weapon or rune that anyone could prove to be better or worse for any situation. Universal Capability is what they need to aim for with weapons and runes. Then balance. As it stands right now I feel the game is lacking in diversity and style. I hope to see major rebalances and changes to bring this game to a wider audience.

Edit:
Character being ugly I thought was a cool thing. I donā€™t care what my character really looks like so long as they fit the story or the games idea.
I do disagree with the mini-map. After a few runs through the world itā€™s easy to remember. Hard at first but once you know it, itā€™s nice not having a mini-map clutter the game too. Although Iā€™m not against the option.

1 Like

Again missing the point, never said the combat has to be like PoE etc.
If they carved a space for itself in the APRG space with its build creation when no one has, shouldnā€™t it be worth a study of it?

Missing the points again, donā€™t mistake my complains about stamina system with struggling with managing stamina.

I have written an entire essay about what sluggish is and even provided game examples that done well, i wonā€™t further elaborate.

One of the main skills in DS games is stamina management. for some whoā€™s played all those games I would think it would not be such an issue?

I, personally, do not find it slow or pointless. There are plenty of ways to manage stamina and it is part of the strategic and tactical decision set you get to make both before and during combat.

3 Likes

I tried to respond to each item specifically. However, from the entire post I did get the feeling that you didnā€™t play far enough into the game. Since some of your points are overturned with what combat turns into.

you are right on this, I didnā€™t get far, or more specifically didnā€™t bother to because everything feels like a slog. If I have to reach 50 hours before combat gets fun, then itā€™s already a failure.

Nope, there are people who like to roleplay (rp) walk; like myself.

You can another button for walk specifically and default movement to run. Even Souls donā€™t walk by default, no good action games walk by default.

And everytime i mention all these movement mechanics, itā€™s always under the perspective of, ā€œare these mechanics that you can do over and over again on live service seasonal content?ā€ If the answer is not sure and no, then it proves my point, sidle is plain useless, simple. Itā€™s as useless as eavesdropping in Sekiro, but hey, Sekiro isnā€™t a live service action. In fact, there is no successful live service action with mechanics like ā€œsidleā€ in it, much less an arpg. but I might be wrong in this and you can feel free to state which successful live service action has sidle and stealth that is use constantly.

The further you get stamina becomes a non-issue, however.

Then why even implement it in the 1st place? In Nioh, stamina becomes a non-issue, but that is because you have mastered the skill of ā€œfluxingā€ after every combat actions, its a skill you master, not simply a point you add. In every other game, it just becomes downtime. You mentioned V Rising, and V Rising has no down time, you simply cycle skills and attack constantly, your retreat is not because you canā€™t do anymore actions because of lack of stamina, but rather a tactical move for your next range or dashing behind the opponents. You still act with purpose without being spammy.

Parry & Block. I disagree here since they serve a different purpose. I can block ranged attacks but I canā€™t parry them. I can block multiple attacks at the same time but I canā€™t parry multiple attacks at the same time

Then itā€™s fine, parry will just become another wasted mechanic that people wonā€™t use. People will just build to block and dodge. This is not special, it has always happened in every other action games that designed it this way. If the devs is keen to waste their time in tuning a mechanic that will be ignored by most, itā€™s not my problem.

Build Variety

100% agreed. Currently we have a Meta of Rune spam and a severe lack of variety in builds. Again, 100% with you on more depth and theory crafting builds. I come from CRPGs like Wrath of The Righteous and Rogue Trader.

I also played both of those games. The idea of build variety is, you need to let player be able to think of ā€œwhat if, hmm, maybe, i think, i can try, i should try etcā€. While they can certainly try Pathfinder style, I think PoE style is more similar, with it being real-time and not a pseudo 6-secs action things etc. Poe replayability lies in its build variety, thatā€™s why people think ā€œnext content I wanna try if i can build thisā€¦ā€ and plan their build in Path of Building. Otherwise what do you think they return every season for? To replay same character? Obviously not.

Hard disagree on the waves of enemies. If what you want becomes reality the game will fail itā€™s original promise of visceral combat as it implies combat is meaningless and should be a power fantasy.

Then they are not building arpg, simple as that. It never has to be waves of enemies exactly like Poeā€™s breach mechanic, and waves doesnt equal ā€œnot visceralā€. V Rising also can deal with waves of enemies, is that not visceral? or is visceral simply limited to 1v1 and 1v2? Then NRFW is just boring low numbers fight constantly, and this is also a prevalent problem with souls, you can never fight multiple enemies at once, max 5 you on screen which you bait and fight them 1 by 1. But then souls is a different genre, its not aiming to be the loot arpg that NRFW is trying to enter and ā€œinnovateā€.
Hades has done it, V Rising has done it, itā€™s not super complex science, both does not feel spammy or 1 button spam.

But with V Rising and action roguelikes, they are not aiming for seasonal content, they are not trying to enter the loot arpg scene, and they already have a more replayable combat system. So why not learn from this instead of ā€œsouls-likeā€?

At the end of the day, I have to re-emphasize for people (not you) who lacks reading comprehension, I am not asking for diablo/poe style combat. NRFW desire to re-innovate the arpg combat, and i desire to see it, but currently, thereā€™s nothing innovative except limited low numbers combat which is already present in a plethora of souls-likes, which has better combat than them. They are also not beating the department in loot arpgs where you have waves of enemies to tackle, and not beating in the action department of isometric action roguelikes, which can handle small and many enemies, so whatā€™s the innovation here?
And the action roguelikes have proven that their combat system is already better in terms of replayability for different builds that can last for multiple seasons.

In playing many of these roguelikes and aprgs, i find the most important stuffs are how tight the controls are, no downtime, and the variety of build you can theorize in the the next run/season. Hades, Warm Snow has got this, and poe nailed down the theory crafting part.

If you are not making a live service arpg, you dont have to nail those points, but you will definitely lose out on replayability. Seasonal content is boring if the next content I just go melee again, and again, and again, without a different melee playstyle.

I donā€™t quite mind the balance as there are no pvp, i think fun needs to come first before balance, and fine tune it later. Make various gears and runes, let players find out funny combinations, and tone it down later if it gets out of hand, but at least you will get new ideas of how a build can work.

Mini map is always a good option and even better if you have the direction system like The Ascent. If you have opened map several times while playing, then my point has been made. It will definitely get boring at the end of the day to stay on similar environments because you have memorized them, then the problem will reappear once you introduce a new environment. So thatā€™s why i suggested the options, more options is just better than no options.

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I disagree wholeheartedly with pretty much everything in the op as well in terms of the changes they would make. It shows they donā€™t get the vision behind the game. The souls like aspects.

Please do not make any of these changes suggested especially the mini map. For the love of all that is holy please donā€™t.

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you are wrong in almost everything

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Iā€™ll just touch on some stuff briefly.

I do think the transitioning of combat from Early to Late could be better, but, it is EA. And we are missing FULL affixes, enchanting and more. I do think the systems in place are good at their core, but need a lot more depth. Which I am sure they are aware off.

They wanted players to see stamina as resource management for boss fights. So you have to consistently pay attention to it. I think this is okay, wish they expended more upon it though. Focus as resource management I dislike. Especially if they want us to use runes intuitively. Since we can lack focus at the moment we want to use our runes. Which feels really bad.

Also parry is pretty strong vs bosses when applicable since it stagger them and creates an opening. Blocking requires a build to be more effective since it only blocks X% or X flat damage.

I do think that making runes part of the combat loop/flow in a reactive sense with short cooldowns will make combat feel a lot better; rather than just powerful finishers. We just need more incentives for the various mechanical distinctions. Then add the ability to customize runes. I think cooldowns as a limiting factor make more sense than focus from the perspective of wanting a fluid combat flow. Focus is a shared resource so people will default to the best rune.

The game has a lot of potential and I hope they fully utilize it. I have a lot of faith in Moon that they will achieve this.

For reference, Diablo vs Souls is like one of the biggest discussions on the forum. Since you are new Iā€™ll leave 2 links to relevant topics should you be interested in them:

  1. [Moon Studio] What is the intended experience?

  2. Souls or Diablo Combat? You canā€™t do both

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Hey, how about instead of suggesting the make a totally different game for you, you just go play a different game?

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Not every game needs to be a souls-like and definitely not an ā€œisometric arpgā€

yes, true. but not every arpg needs to be a clone from each other, its nice to have something new to the arpg world since i yet to see diablo style game with souls like mechanics other than NRFTW. if you dislike it then go play arpg games that are clones from diablo and poe, this is not.

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