The RNG Problem, Enchantment System & Gem System “TOGETHER” (Update)

I’ve read your response a few times and I think what you are asking for isn’t an ARPG it’s a single player game that has the combat system.

All the good ARPG’s have friction to get what you want and where you want to be. Without it the game loop doesn’t actually work. I find spending 30 minutes chopping tree’s and mining and fishing to get upgrade very refreshing! Better than mindlessly killing stuff for the same amount of time. Determinism in an ARPG is almost impossible to do well, much less get right and I think this is a very creative way to do it and they did it fairly well.

And I understand that getting the perfect build would take much longer than the average player can stick with a game but that stuff typically isn’t there for them anyway. In PoE we call them chase items and it usually applies to super rare unique items but plague’s that are perfectly crafted fall into that category as well. I had a build in 3 blues and 2 plague items that easily did all the content so what you’re describing isn’t a level of requirement for the game to be playable. If you want the good stuff you gotta put in the time.

I played with 2 of my kids and I swapped builds mid game 3 times for a total of 4 play styles and didn’t have much issue doing that. Most of the stats work with most of the builds in a generic sense. Obviously you want better stuff but you can play anything you want and still be fine, in my experience.

As for the enchanting system of embers and and infusions and actual enchanting. RNG is the name of the game in an ARPG. It’s how every ARPG ever has been made and it’s why people like them. It’s the core mechanic required to make the ARPG work. So it literally can’t go anywhere, if it wasn’t there, it wouldn’t be an ARPG.

Housing is required to actually play the game in a min/max way. If you aren’t interested in the mechanics housing offered you were making your life harder by not using the crafting system to the fullest. Which could in turn be a by product of you not wanting to farm ore and trees at all.

Basically it all comes back around to friction being a core part of getting gear. Reducing friction reduces the dopamine you get when you get what you WANT, not what you need. Sorry I disagree so much.

I won’t deny that your post has annoyed me a bit, but the reason isn’t that we disagree, but that your interpretation/understanding of my opinion doesn’t match what I wrote.

You misinterpreted, many things, maybe it’s partly the fault of my English which obviously isn’t the best. And it’s also the fault of the fact that I’m very verbose so obviously it’s difficult to keep attention.

But It seems that you have missed some important details of what I wrote, so please read more slowly/carefully what I wrote without prejudice, you will realize that we do not disagree so much.

I would like to point out that I didn’t ask to remove things that I don’t like, but only to adjust the balanced things, and I accepted that there are things in this game that I don’t like, such as collecting resources (chopping trees, mining, etc.) because even if I don’t like it, it’s a well-implemented system.

Yes, the system has been implemented well, and as I said before I accepted its existence even if I don’t like it because it’s good for the game.

I agree, but in fact it is difficult to do well, not impossible, I would specify that RNG without good design is just as problematic in an RPG as Determinism without good design.

In fact That’s why I make the distinction Between “Perfect” builds and “Complete” builds.

I know the game is playable, a very low bar to reach xD. The bad thing is that customization is not encouraged, quite the opposite.

Do you know that RPG stands for Role Play Game? I think it’s not irrational to ask to be able to play with the build I want, and the character I want to interpret, I’m not saying it has to be easy but the process has to be fun.

All good games have friction, but in the right places at the right time.

And my system has some friction points I advise you to read it carefully, for example have you noticed that to move the gems you still have to pay money and sometimes embers?

Did you notice that gems are still quite rare and you have to find them? (And the same goes for embers)

When I say that players should have most of the gems in the post-game (after the end of the main story) and therefore be free to experiment, have you forgotten that these gems must be found along the way, collecting them from hard-to-reach chests, or in any case by spending time exploring the map? Obviously, if a player goes straight through the story without exploring, he won’t even get even half of the gems needed to be free to experiment.

Did you realize that large gems are even rarer and therefore it will realistically take even more than 100 hours to collect them all (after the end of the game), and that sublimation is an expensive and difficult process that requires time and skill to obtain the necessary resources? (I think this is enough to give you the adrenaline rush you’re talking about later)

Sorry if I’m passive aggressive here, but to say that my system has no friction seems more like rage bait than real criticism, I know that wasn’t your intention but still.

You expressed concern about the gameplay loop, but since collecting large gems and embers, and the materials for sublimation require playing the game, the game loop is not negatively affected by my system (and of course you still have to have the weapons and armor and materials to level them up).

You like to say “in RPGs it’s like this” first of all I’d like to point out that just because something is like this in another good game doesn’t mean it’s a good idea in NRFTW, in fact it needs to be proven that it was a good idea in those games too, just because a game is successful doesn’t mean that all its systems are good (and if they are good in that game it doesn’t mean they make sense in NRFTW), but if you really need an example of an RPG that allows you to customize the build to your liking that works I’d point out that in Elden Ring, Once you finish the game it allows you to experiment freely with all the builds. Souls is a subgenre of RPGs, but I don’t think anyone can say that Elden Ring isn’t a good RPG.

Having a custom build doesn’t mean having a strong build, If the game is balanced correctly all the blinds have more or less the same strength, so it’s the Sublimation (which increases the power of the effects) that gives you a stronger build.

I didn’t say to eliminate the RNG but to manage it correctly. Reading the messages I exchanged with Steven Hunt would have made it clear to you, while that’s also what I said in the main topic, so I don’t understand why you think I want to remove it.

Maybe it’s true for most, but not for all, in fact the Souls which as already I told you are RPG, have very little RNG.

There is a need to find a balance (It’s different for every game) and at the moment the RNG is too high and unmanageable and this is clearly bad for the game.

I never said I’m not buying a house because I’m not interested. Where did you get this information? I’m not interested in the feature, In the sense that I don’t decorate the house, and if there wasn’t a house in the game and in its place I had a bottomless chest, it wouldn’t make any difference to me, but I understand that other people might like it, and they don’t bother me and I use them without any problems, that’s why I’m indifferent, I didn’t say that I hate them.

First of all the overall experience is NOT JUST THE DOPAMINE, And when we have to think about the experience of using a system, the system I proposed is more intuitive and more natural an fun to use at every stage of the game.

I think the most important thing is to make the player think and adapt , make choices, (also called actually playing the game) and reward him when this process happens, While allowing the player to achieve his goals "allowing” It doesn’t mean giving them away for free, but it doesn’t mean doing everything possible to make the experience of reaching your goals a living hell either.

Having a custom build is always secondary to completing the game (obviously) so if the game makes the experience of personalizing a character hell most players will simply stop traying and they will abandon creativity for efficiency, because being creative is actively punished by the game, which instead favors being opportunistic not like in an RPG but like in a RogueLike (Except that in a RogueLike the run, the character and the build last about an hour while in NRFTW the characters are permanent and changing builds is problematic).

The system is opaque and inscrutable and confusing for players, for example, even after hours of play, few players will be able to understand that the spells are divided into groups, and even if they do, it is almost impossible to understand what all the effects are and how they are categorized without a wiki (my system would also solve this problem).

Good for you, the example I gave you in the previous post is a realistic example that happens if you want to role play, with a slightly unlucky RNG, it doesn’t happen if you don’t want to role play, in fact I specified it.

It’s to help understand that trying to make a specific build instead of adapting to the RNG can be really problematic, and this shouldn’t happen in an ARPG.

I hope that everything is clear to you now, so we can actually discuss the things we disagree on, in an effective manner.

Overall, I agree.
The most paradoxical thing is that the system only gets worse from the moment the game launches.

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A partial solution to this system would be to return the “Exalt Item” to the ancient Seneschal. Although this is also a “crutch”. I covered this in more detail here:
Seneschal - return “Exalt Item”

I told you the reason why this solution would not be particularly useful under your topic.

My system also changes the exaltation, and makes the values ​​of the enchantments fixed, but if the only change to be made is exaltation, the system would still be left with many problems.

First of all, you oversimplified @Lombix_4 ‘s post into a reductive argument that doesn’t even match what he said. Now, here’s my two cents.

People have busy lives, and they tend to play single player games to enjoy 1-1.5 hour gaming sessions and feel they achieved something. If my hour is spent grinding and losing all that to a bad roll, then it means my entire play session was wasted and ruins my mood.

Many people have work throughout the day and want to relax, not spend time on a gacha slot machine- this is not friction, this is artificial padding of runtime. If I wanted this, I would play an MMO, not a single player game.

As a father, I am sure you can understand the difficulties of a working adult, or at least I hope you do.

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Great ideas and effort @Lombix_4 . I am posting here for visibility since the last reply to this post was 17 days ago even though you updated it quite recently.

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Thank you very much!

While you’re at it, what do you think of the New Embers?

And what do you think of my suggestions to improve them?

Overall I agree with your points on Embers. I wish they thought for a while to come up with intuitive solutions instead of bandaging issues with half-baked items that worsen the loot drop tables, increasing the RNG as much as they reduced it.

The idea of giving Void and Fallen Embers the second role of Enchanting makes a lot of sense, I think that’s great.

In an ideal situation, we would not need Void, Awakening, and Corrupted Embers- all of that could be done by Eleanor for a fee of Fallen Embers or Gold.

I also really liked your point about exalting sometimes only giving 1% increases, or in this case, Radiant Embers doing that. I really wish they reverted to the old Exalt, which was one of the good systems from the previous update that they now destroyed.

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After playing the together update I can say with all my heart that I hate the new exalted system, the bloated new embers and especially the facets to the point that I have no desire to continue playing the game after completing the story.

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I cannot agree with you disagreeing more lol.

I read this post and I’m just thinking… so he just wants to play a single player combat game then.

Like you literally don’t even need to have perfect gear to be able to build something feasible for the end game content so I’m not sure why players keep referring to getting perfect gear as not respecting their time. It’s not really supposed to, it’s perfect for a reason. If you’re a casual player who doesn’t want to invest time into getting perfect gear… then don’t, you don’t need to. The content is completely trivialized by having 50% of what is considered a perfect build already.

By adding friction and RNG, it gives players something to strive for long term, and for something to feel good about when they find something unique. People really underestimate how much people chase that feeling. That feeling is exactly why ARPGs are successful, and if they’re going the ARPG route, why wouldn’t the devs want to make one that’s scalable for years? If you can make any gear in the game, there is literally zero long term goal and no kind of expansion or 10 year plan can sustain itself on that.

I feel like if there was a simple way for him to pick every single line in his gear at no cost he would probably choose that. Literally no thrill. No dopamine. Nothing.

Hard disagree.

Also I get introducing gems to make things more grindy and exciting but that still doesn’t address the point about gear being an absolute snooze fest to pick up (which is typically the funnest part of looting) because the lines or even what the gear is is completely meaningless to building your character.

Considering what you say next, I’m assuming you’re referring to me and not Elliot even though your post is responding to him.

I have already explained this before if you want the details read the conversation with @StivenHunt & @Elliot_Thibodeaux

I don’t want to get op, I want to do fun builds, the system prevents me from doing so and feeds me to a sea of ​​RNGs.

I want a “complete” build not a “perfect” build, basically I want the satisfaction of having put the pieces of the puzzle together, but I don’t want to be op.

The game should not be balanced with the RNG, if it is balanced by the RNG I become strong only because I am lucky not because the game respects my time.

And in any case I don’t want to have a strong character because it trivializes the game, I want a fun character to play, and to get it I want to make a fun build.

I made this post because the current system severely limits creativity due to the RNG.

I don’t give a shit about breaking the game with OP builds, I hope they get rebalanced so that they are no longer OP, if you think being OP is fun you can play the easy mode.

RNG doesn’t respect my time or yours, if you achieve something with RNG it is not your doing, it is not thanks to your skills or your work: you just Got lucky.

There are better ways to give players what they deserve, RNG is a tool for adding replayability that doesn’t work well at rewarding players properly or balancing the game.

The value of a game does not depend on how long it lasts but on the quality of the experience, if to make the end game last longer everything is regulated by the RNG, the game suffers and if only “the few who have the patience” play late game it’s because the late game is shit.

You pretend to be among the chosen few who have gigantic balls and can endure it, ok but even if you have these qualities, it doesn’t mean you are right.

Difficulty is a substance that must be used correctly, at the right time with the right doses, which is why Difficulty and RNG do not mix well.

Furthermore the current implementation of RNG damages the game in every stage of the progression not only in the “End game made for those looking for the thrill of RNG, the dopamine”.

The quality of a system, (and that of a game) is not measured in the dopamine it gives you.

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