The RNG Problem, Enchantment System & Gem System “TOGETHER” (Update)

Wicked Feedback
42

Sorry, I was talking about live, I didn’t play the beta yet, and I don’t know how they changed the “Exalt” system. It felt fine on live, but again it only works well with fixed stat items as rings, legendaries and infused items.

I voted on your poll, but I don’t really followed your enchatment proposal, I still think that it is tedious to have 2 systems and I am sure that no one will miss the Enchanted Stats if the Infuse/Gem system is well made.

But I agree, even on live the RNG feels problematic and if they made it worse in beta then it’s really bad. At this point any change should be good, whatever is simpler to implement from their side, with the purpose to remove the RNG stats and to give more build crafting freedom.

Maybe you should add the vote option in the poll if we would like to have only the Infuse/Gem system.

And you are right, Facets are annoying, very RNG and should be reworked as well. So I basically agree with everything you wrote in your well written post, it’s just that I think that the Enchantment system should be removed, so much simpler for development.

43

My brain automatically sees them as legendaries you guys actually true.

45

Idea: Make it harder for players to achieve perfect builds.

Implementation: Unrealistic re-roll cap vs. pool size.

Compounding factor: Totally randomized loot acquisition.

Sorry, I tend to keep it as short as possible.

P.S> The devs and Thomas himself are aware of this and the general consensus of the player base. They have soft confirmed adjustments to be made in the actual release. So, I this the point has been driven enough and we should just wait and see what they will do next.

46

In my opinion there should be a satisfactory step before the so-called perfect builds,

because the way things work a “perfect” build and a “complete” build are the same thing, and I like to try a lot of different builds, and I want them to be “complete”, then if there is an extra step to make these builds completely op I don’t care at all, I want to be free to experiment and be creative without having to spend weeks before finishing the build I want to try, the same way you can do it in Elden Ring.

The idea of ​​the “perfect build” but it seems a bit ridiculous to me, it puts unrealistic expectations on a goal that is actually very simple, which is to have the effects you want where you want them, and not have a build compromised by RNG.

It seems to me like an excuse to make the players grind a lot for something which they should be reasonably able obtain, items that are not fucked by the RNG and the ability to experiment with builds.

47

I saw that you gave the Elden Ring example, god, you really must hate Nightreign’s relics then if you played that as well. I do.

Elden Ring Nightreign is a perfect example of how a half assed, messed up progression system that rely solely on RNG can ruin a decent game. Nightreign’s relics puts casinos to shame.

This game(NRFTW) has potential, don’t ruin it with cheap game design progression systems, make build crafting interesting, allow build crafting freedom, remove item stat RNG.

48

Roguelikes are a completely different type of game, Having a custom build is not a selling point of that type of game, and they have a completely different progression they are not my favorite genre but I really like Enter the Gungeon.

Nightreign It looks nice but I will try it only when me and all my friends will have a PC that can run it without problems, I can’t tell you if I like it or not, I haven’t played it and I haven’t seen a complete playthrough.

49

Currently it is not only too tedious to get ideal stats on gear, but even to experiment with builds.

I want to try out different weapons and abilities, but the process is incredibly time consuming and frustrating on all levels.

Build crafting is part of the fun of these kinds of games, and I’m confused as to why there are so many barriers for trying out a variety of play styles. It’s frustrating instead of enjoyable.

50

The change made in beta which limits rerolls has to definitely be reverted. The RNG nature of facets are worrying as well. Stop going the RNG path, give player a freedom to build craft. It is a genuine concern, nobody likes RNG stat gambling.

And honestly if you are going the RNG path it will be worse for multiplayer, especially in PVP imagine the power differences between god rolls and people who genuinely play for fun. Nobody will want to participate in that. And you should take cheating into consideration as well, a save editor done right will be extremely hard to detect. Nightreign and Remant II are 2 good examples of RNG cheating and how it affects multiplayer, and those don’t even tackle with PVP.

51

But there are many other problems for PvP in my Opinion.

Thomas said that because of how the combat in NRFDW is done (animation-based), PvP will be fun, I’m honestly not very convinced, also because I don’t like the PvP of souls, I’ll try it when they implement it but I’m sure there will be a lot of problems, The animations of some weapons are too fast for PvP, if a basic enemy would have access to certain animations of the player’s weapons it would be unfair and unreactable, the only way I see it working is if there are only specific weapons made specifically for PvP, with specific range, AOE, animations for PvP.

Fighting games are already very difficult to balance when they are designed to be PvP from the start.

But maybe Souls-style invasions could work (They might be fun but I doubt they will be fair xD).

If you’re interested, there was another conversation about PvP here:

Same, can you please resend to the second question of the questionnaire?

I would like to have the data well organized there.

52

Regarding PVP, a duel feature in your realm may work if they want to add it for fun, but soulslike invasions are definitely not going to work unless the game is balanced around PVP.

53

The developers are definitely aware of the massive RNG grind required to minmax a build. The real question is whether they actually expect players to grind 200+ hours for a perfect setup, or if they do not want players to ever achieve a perfect build - instead encouraging them to progress with whatever they find, similar to roguelike or vampire survivors-style games. I would really like to hear from them about their philosophy on builds in wicked.

While personally I can accept extreme RNG grind in live service hack’n’slash games like path of exile 1 & 2, I do not like those systems in singleplayer action games. I also do not like “play with what you’ve got” approach if implemented super restrictively and without any order like it is now.

That is why I never spend resources on armor pieces during the campaign - I only upgrade and roll the weapon I want to use. It kind of sucks that it does not feel worth investing resources during the campaign, and that it is usually better to just pick up whatever drops and accept a silly looking outfit until endgame.

This is a very interesting proposition. I have been thinking about something similar recently.

The gem system currently is not very engaging. Fixing it by allowing the same mods as the enhancement system would just create a new set of problems. So I think it would be much easier to simply remove it from the game and instead focus on creating one good, unified system - or repurpose gems into a different system not tied to items. For example, they could become a separate source of power embedded into the character itself, or part of a skill tree once the job system is finally implemented.

As for rolling enhancements, I think some limits would benefit the gameplay - but the currently implemented limit of 10 rerolls on the beta branch is not a good solution. Instead, I would propose something closer to what you suggested.

When adding an enhancement to an item via an ember, the game should display a list of mods to choose from (similar to power-up cards in vampire survivor games). This list should be rerollable a limited number of times per item, with the limit being fairly generous. Because of that, removing and replacing existing enhancements should not be possible. Players would get a limited, but generous set of mods to pick from in order to create a permanent, non-modifiable item.

This alone would fix many current problems - but it still would not be enough, because a completely random list of mods would still result in bricked items too often. That is why the available mods should be influenced by the new job system they are planning to implement. Mods related to the player’s chosen class should have a much higher chance to appear. For example, if a player chooses the barbarian class (just as an example - I don’t remember what classes are planned), then barbarian-related mods should be far more likely to show up. If there would be a new rage resource tied to that class, then rage-related mods should be much more common as options. This would allow for far more reliable crafting.

There could even be two types of rerolls: a standard reroll that favors class-related mods, and a second type that favors more general, non-class-specific bonuses like increased life, etc.

This system would introduce meaningful limits to crafting while still being generous enough to avoid excessive grind. It would also avoid the extremes we see with other approaches - where either unlimited rerolls mean you only ever need one copy of an item to make it perfect, or harsh limits (like in the beta branch) mean you need 200+ copies to get the result you want.

Of course this system would require for the game to have much more mods/mechanics, so that each class can have big enough list of mods tied to them.

What do you think?

54

On second thought, I would slightly modify the system I proposed in previous post by extending it with something similar to path of exile 1 influenced items.

Every item could have up to two class affinities. A class affinity would make mods in the “add enhancement” list much more likely to be associated with that class. Because from what I remember the class system is meant to be fluid depending on the weapon the player equips, I think this approach would work much better from a UX perspective. Additionally, it would allow players to wear items with many different class affinities, increasing build variety. Finally, it could encourage players to switch classes if they happened to craft a very strong item with a different class affinity than the one they’re currently using.

To clarify, class affinities on items would only increase the chances of class-related mods appearing when adding an enhancement. They would not restrict the player from equipping or using those items.

55

Same, but I’m afraid that even if we asked them a similar question, the answer would be very vague.

Please tell me the problems you see because I don’t see them, genuinely xD.

I honestly believe that if the solution is a single system it should be the gem system (but with the complex effects of the enchantment system).

It’s a cool idea, it’s a bit like the charm system from Hollow Knight + Skill tree.

But I don’t know if the game would benefit from other systems, the game is already quite complex.

It’s clear that having infinite rerolls has its problems, it’s frustrating to spend time rolling, After spending 50 ember on a weapon you are not satisfied with having your weapon but more than anything you feel like the torture is over.

But it is still the best alternative, if the RNG is reduced by giving options the process will be faster and less frustrating, and if you add to this the possibility of inserting a gem instead of the effect you want to change, everything should become more manageable and less RNG dependent.

I’m telling you, putting lists of more than 3 effects in front of players is overwhelming.

5 is probably the maximum number, after that it becomes quite unreadable and tiring to deal with a decision like that It’s not a pleasant experience, and it’s like you’re just reading and playing and not playing. I won’t have many problems since I’m the type of guy who likes statics, but I think most people would hate it. You don’t want to put a sheet of Excel spreadsheets in front of players every time they insert an effect for the weapon.

The thing is, if you don’t get what you want, you end up throwing away the item, and it’s a terrible experience, imagine you crafted a weapon, and I’d like to put a specific effect like electricity + attack speed and you don’t find it, then you feel deeply dissatisfied, and you have to try to find the weapon again or find the crafting materials.

It’s terrible because it seems that instead of getting closer to your ideal by working hard you just go back and forth because of situations that are outside of your control, you don’t make any mistake but the RNG punishes you, and you’re forced to start all over again.

You could solve this problem by adjusting the reroll number.

I don’t know, it’s hard to imagine, also because I haven’t seen the class system in action yet. I feel that this risks limiting the options and therefore the creativity of the builds.

This solves the problem of build limitation but makes the system even more complex.

From this point of view it is much better than the beta system, and maybe even a little better than the infinite reroll system, but as I have said, the fact that the progression is not linear but you take steps forward and steps back is a serious problem.

I’m not sure I understand, in the new system there are weapons corresponding to a single class, I don’t understand what you mean with “Every item could have up to two class affinities. A class affinity would make mods in the “add enhancement” list much more likely to be associated with that class.”. Are you also proposing that every weapon should have the option of two classes instead of one?

In my opinion, your system is better than the current one but it is less usable by players who are not familiar with statistics. Your system also considers the fact that the devs want some RNG grind to be present in the game, and they want to limit rerolls.

I’m curious to know how you would like to implement sublimation? And if the variance of the enchantment stats remains as it is now or is it “fixed” (like in the system I propose: instead of a composite value between 5-15 the base value is always 10 and 15 when sublimating).

I think my system is more usable at every stage of the game thanks to the possibility of freely combining gems and enchantment on an item, and leaves more choices to the player without overwhelming him.

In my opinion, devs need to justify the grind for a “perfect” item.
I think “perfect” items don’t exist, they’re just “complete” ones.

If the enchantment stats became fixed (like in the system I propose: instead of a composite value between 5-15 the base value is always 10 and 15 when sublimating) then the sublimation would really serve to obtain perfect items and not to adjust them to decent values, it would be better.

And the grind would be shifted: instead of working to customize the build to your liking, you work towards sublimation.

So players who want a perfect build that’s difficult to achieve are happy and have a clear goal to work towards, and at the same time players who want a to customize their playstyle without having statistics compromised by the RNG and therefore have a build that is “complete” even if it is not perfect are free to do so.

(I was thinking of writing a topic about this very thing, “Perfect & complete items shouldn’t be the same thing” but I was thinking of posting it at the end of the month to see what changes have been made in the new non-beta patch).

56

Assuming you want to keep both the gem and enhancement systems, the main problem I see is that they would essentially do the same thing. The only difference would be that gems are deterministic while enhancements are not. So what would be the point of ever using enhancements?

The gem system you suggested is a perfectly fine solution, but in that case the enhancement system should probably be removed. Conversely, the enhancement system I proposed or any other approach that fixes the current problems would also be fine, but then gems should probably be removed or repurposed into some other form of progression. It would simply be easier that way.

I do not have a strong preference at the moment for how the current itemization issues in wicked should be solved. I have been watching some gameplay from a few indie vampire survivors clones recently, and it made me think that a similar approach to progression could be interesting in an rpg. Since the topic came up here, it felt like a good opportunity to discuss it.

No way, it is not that complex. Wicked has a very small number of mods that can roll on items. Adding an additional progression system like that with simple passive stat bonuses would not be a big deal.

There are definitely ways to reduce rng significantly without removing it completely, while still keeping some meaningful limits on top of that.

I believe it is necessary to sometimes say “no” to the player. Not too often though, otherwise they might lose interest, but in small, digestible, and fun ways. That really adds to the experience.

Locking items eventually also gives them an identity, like “This is a fire sword for a battlemage build”. With unlimited rerolls, you instead get “Right now it is a fire extinguisher, tomorrow it might be a flashy executioner blade, and in a month… who knows? Maybe I will reroll it into a potato peeler”.

Players would only ever see three options at a time when adding an enhancement. They would simply have the ability to reroll that list, meaning the current options are discarded and a new set is generated. There is nothing overwhelming about that.

Players might discard an item if a mod does not work with their build at all, which ideally should not happen with item class affinities. Players would almost always see class related options in the “add enhancement” list, so if they are using a bleeding mechanic, for example, they would have a high chance of getting bleed related options to choose from. Sure, they might prefer the exact mod they planned for, but it would not be a tragedy, especially during the campaign if instead of “increased bleed damage” they got “bleed damage is applied in faster intervals” or “enemies start bleeding with fewer hits”.

As long as the mod is actually usable, it should be an acceptable option. It should be normalized that players won’t always get the perfect outcome they wanted.

Technically, there is no problem with weapons having two class affinities, but for simplicity they could be the exception and only have one for now. Other items could have up to two affinities, meaning they might have either one or two.

To be honest, I have not really thought about endgame finishing touches like exaltation or sublimation. It is mostly irrelevant, because I have been focusing on the core system that is at the root of the problem. Any endgame systems can easily be adapted to work with it.

57

But then why not just have the system I’ve proposed, the system you propose here has 2 differences that you have to do all in one sitting, which is heavy, although way better than the excel sheet option, and the other is the definitive confirmation of the effect, which I think is the real reason why you want this method. But I think there are better ways to achieve a similar result, for example by blocking the effect once it has been sublimated, so the item still has a true identity once perfected, and if you particularly like a weapon, maybe you sublimate two of them but with different effects.

But there is no reason to give something randomly instead of the things they want, it limits creativity in a way that cannot be controlled by the player.

Even the current system gives us effects that work, but the problem is that if we cannot decide what we want in a precise way, we are very limited in our creativity.

I still think it would be better to have these kinds of conversations after seeing the class system. It seems like a good idea to me but I can’t really see if it’s intuitive or confusing from the player’s point of view. And since everything is based on the implementation of the classes it would be better to see how the class system is first.

Since the effects are exactly the same, if you find the effect you want with the enhancements you have no reason to remove it, and if you have the gem with the same effect you can use it on a different item.

This system has different benefits at different stages of the game:

In the Early Game, gems are few, while enhancements are easily accessible with embers. Obviously, you don’t have enough embers to get exactly what you want in the early game, but you can already build decent items, so you’re not forced to use the things you find, and upgrading the items you have becomes a viable option again, because thanks to the fact that you can decide if your items are blue or purple, you don’t risk getting random curses if you stay on the 4-effect threshold.

In Mid Game, you already start mixing effects, and if you want you could do a full gem build ,but gems are still limited. For example, it’s unlikely you’ll find 5/6 stamina gems to put on each equipped item, and you don’t have enough gems and resources to craft them, You also now find more embers so you can decide the enhancements better.

In Late Game, you start to have most of the gems potential and you start to find the big gems, Full gem builds are more customizable and you can also craft them, without too much waste. But combining two systems is always the best option, here it is also a bit of a player’s preference the distribution between gems and enchantments.

In the Post Game, sublimation is unlocked, large gems are still hard to find, and sublimation even if it is a lot of work it is also a more direct process and it is clear to get the strongest effects.

Here the player who likes to experiment has fun with the gems (even if it still makes sense to have some enhancements here and there). While the player who wants to become even stronger and get the perfect item will only use enhancements to Sublimate them and large gems (which are still rare and not craftable).

In the Late Post Game, some players will only use the large gems and move them from their build to another. But others will collect their perfect items and therefore do not move the gems from one build to another and will still use many enchantments.

The systems are complementary even if they have the same effects, in fact they are complementary precisely because they have the same effects.

Having both gives the player possibilities and decisions to make that would not exist if only one or the other existed, since the effects are the same they are also easy to develop, and does not limit the creativity of the developers with the effects.

Obviously, this only works if the rarity of embers and gems is managed well throughout the game, but since embers exist and must be balanced in this way already, the only thing developers need to put the extra long term work on is to distribute the amount of gems well throughout the game.

58

I am guessing you are worried that when a player starts the process of adding an enhancement and the list of mods appears, they would be forced to make a decision immediately before they can continue playing.

That does not have to be the case, it depends on the implementation. The developers could simply allow the displayed list of mods to be closed, so the player can delay the decision and resume playing.

That is a good solution for giving items an identity, but sublimation should lock the entire item instead of just one mod.

I do not think randomness is a problem when it is applied in reasonable doses, it can actually enrich the experience. It is much more satisfying to finally get the cool weapon you have been hunting for after an hour than to obtain it in five minutes without any real effort.

I also would not say that randomness limits creativity, nothing really can. It simply slows your progress toward your goals. But is not that what most game systems do anyway? For example, enemies dodging your attacks is outside of your control, it is essentially a dice roll. The primary purpose is to add unpredictability to combat, but it inevitably slows your progress. Maybe instead of killing an enemy in four hits, it now takes seven. Still, those random, unexpected moments can make the eventual victory feel more satisfying.

In general, randomness in games is a tricky topic to discuss, because every player has their own preference. So I think there are a few interesting questions the community should talk about:

How long it should take to do a first working setup of a build? How long it should take to perfect a build? And finally, how many builds should a player realistically be able to complete in a single character playthrough?

I have a feeling that in this scenario the enhancement system would only really matter in the early game. When a player plans to craft a specific item, there would generally be two ways to do it: either farm embers for a random enhancement, or farm fully deterministic gems. In that case, I think most players would simply choose gems.

But there is an even bigger problem with the enhancement system, even with the changes you proposed.

I would assume that as time goes on, the game will continue to grow, and more and more mods will be added to the pool. For example, there might eventually be new mods related to bleeding, critical strikes, or even the necromancer class Thomas has mentioned a few times. As the mod pool doubles or triples, rolling the exact enhancement you want will become outrageously difficult.

The gem system even with a larger pool would only be affected slightly, which could be addressed with target farming and gem crafting. That is why I think it would simply be easier to remove the enhancement system altogether if your gem system idea was to be implemented.

In my proposal this problem would be solved through item class affinities. Even if the mod pool becomes huge, affinities would give you a significantly higher chance of rolling mods from a smaller class-themed subset. Something that actually fits your build.

59

I liked the idea of facets, to create some uniqueness among the same items you find, but not in conjuction with all the current layers of rng on top:

I wanted to make a Smithing Character, so i started crafting the chest piece until i got 5 with increased durability/reduced focus i think. started enchanting them rolled durability+ and for 4 i was already at reroll limit, rolled the last one and … nothing. and then i was thinking, i couldnt even burn all the embers i got while farming the materials to try what can i even get as durability related enchants, may it be focus, stamina, health or damage. At that point i stopped playing. Like you pointed out i invested tons time to end up with nothing. And no reachable goal in sigth, IT IS NOT FUN! ITS DISAPOINTING AND DEMORALIZING.

I made 3 characters in the Beta and played all the campaign content, with the only things leaning to my wanted character fantasy the look of the armor,the weapon of my choice (only after i could craft them) and the runes

60

Good, better, but I have the impression that it is more complicated than it needs to be, and that there is a way to get what you are looking for with less complications, but maybe it seems complicated to write but in practice it is not.

I have an idea on how to make this lock thing more streamlined. Hope I understand your intentions correctly (obviously I still prefer the system I’ve already shown you).

This example is to help you optimize your idea: When you insert an enchantment with the ember, You will be given 3 options, then you can choose one of them and repeat until you find what you are looking for, once you have found what you are looking for you can confirm the enchantment, the enchantments shown during the selection process are not active and have no effect (until the enchantment is confirmed), once the enchantment is confirmed it is not possible to change it.

This way you can immediately get an item with a well-defined and unchangeable personality before sublimation, but you don’t have to throw away the item, but as a counterweight until you decide the effect you want the item can’t use “temporary” effects.

Is this the system you were looking for, or is it just a good compromise? (or maybe I still haven’t understood what you’re looking for xD)

It makes sense, but I think it also makes sense to block only one thing at a time so that we have a sense of work in progress towards the perfect item, and it’s a multi-step thing, but blocking everything still has a sense but it’s more committed so at this point it would make more sense for all the effects to be achieved at once rather than one at a time.

But this is more a question of preferences I think giving small rewards in steps is more satisfying.

I agree must be used in right doses and in the right places. RNG is just a tool and it is not intrinsically good or bad.

As I already said RNG has to respect my work (and my time) and this system doesn’t do that, because, It seems like we’re taking steps forward and steps back, If the progression system has to integrate RNG (in the case of NRFTW I believe this is the case), the steps forward must be clear and fairly constant, and wasting an item because I can’t fix it anymore is a big step backwards, an undeserved punishment assigned by the RNG, Blocking enchantments before obtaining the item that you want is a problem.

If I decide to work to achieve something I must be able to determine more or less how much work time it requires or what obstacles do I have to overcome to reach the goal.

but with limited rerolls, (or with rerolls that are too random), It always seems like I’m being punished or rewarded by the RNG, it’s true that I invented time and work but it still doesn’t seem like a direct consequence and for this reason it’s less satisfying.

But here I think there also is a confusion between “Perfect build” and “Complete Build”.

If I want to try a build, and I already have everything in mind, I have thought about and designed that specific combination (but without trying it in game I can’t always understand if I like it or not).

After doing this mental exercise (in post game) I should already be able to assemble this idea and assemble it, and if it works as I imagined, this is the prize. This way you get a “complete” build.

The “perfect” build is the one you get by overcoming difficult tests and playing a lot, which gives you that satisfaction you’re talking about.

Part of the answer is already contained in what I said earlier.

The essential reward for creativity is trying the build. If you can’t try the build, or if you have to face too many complications to try it, creativity isn’t rewarded.

And if you don’t reward the player’s creativity, they aren’t encouraged to be creative, but to be efficient, and creativity slowly dies.

The result is that more and more players try to make Op builds, and not fun builds and or customize them according to their preferences.

In my opinion, during the story the players must be able to choose between the options offered by the RNG or have a 2-4 of builds that they can make for themself.

Then in post game the players should be essentially free to experiment, with just a couple of limitations, to ensure that players don’t change the build continuously without ever having the time to appreciate the builds they make.

And for perfect builds I think being able to sublimate 1-3 effects per day would be a good balance, means that if you play every day you can get a perfect build in one or two weeks.

It takes enough time to complete a build to be satisfied but the time is short enough to allow you to do more and start a collection of perfect builds instead of stop playing.

I can understand if someone would want perfect builds to be much harder to get like one item a week, but with so much time required in my case would mean making only one or two perfect weapons and then playing only to test builds.

The thing is you find embers the same way you find gems (so you can’t farm for one or the other) but gems are rarer, you never find yourself in a situation where you have many Embers and few gems or you have many Gems and few embers. So in the end the best option is always to mix the two.

Since large gems cannot be crafted, if you want to get a perfect Build, sublimation is the more reliable process, which only works with enchantments.

So players who want perfect items will probably prefer enchantments over gems, with the exception of large gems, which are very rare, we are talking about hundreds of hours of gameplay to get them all, let alone to get 6 copies of each one.

Also even assuming that having both systems is only useful during the campaign, it still makes heaving the double system sufficiently useful! In my opinion it would do a very important job, for example no one uses mushroom soup in the late game except in desperate cases, but the game without mushroom soup would be worse.

I think the system I propose is also very similar to the difference between crab soup and mushroom soup. It almost seems like since they do the same thing, there’s no point in having both, but actually, having these two separate recipes is very useful. In the early game, they’re equivalent and you use one or the other based on what you have, but then you find stronger recipes that use mushrooms, and then You use crabs for simpler recipes and you keep the mushrooms for the best recipes. Then you find a very strong recipe that uses crabs and then they swap roles, and then there’s even a recipe that uses them together. But crafting these simple recipes never becomes truly useless, but even if it became completely useless it wouldn’t be a problem because both are needed at the beginning and in the mid game the game would be clearly worse. (I hope the analogy makes sense to you xD, obviously it’s not exactly the same thing it’s just a similar example).

There are a lot of effects in the enchantment system that are useless and that no one would choose, with the elimination of such effects the process would be slower, obviously in the long run it would still be a problem, But increasing the drop rate of embers it should be a sufficient countermeasure.

I also think you’re not considering that each enchantment (and the gems too) is included in a group, so if the item already has a stamina effect (regardless of whether it comes from a gem or an enchantment) the enchantment effects list has fewer effects given that all those related to stamina are removed.

This combined with the fact that each character has the possibility to choose between 3 options, essentially means that with 2-6 rerolls you get what you want and therefore the gem system does not seem so clearly more deterministic since you still have to find / craft the gems. Since new effects are often included in the old groups (the critical in the damage group, the blood in the infusions group, etc.) It also takes a long time before the system becomes problematic again, and if increasing the drop rate of embers is not enough, new ideas can be found to fix the system.

For example, a change can be made to the reroll system so that enchantments that have appeared and were not chosen and/or have been rerolled previously have a lower probability of reappearing for the next rerolls and similar improvements.

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I don’t think any ARPG would endorse truly deterministic ways of getting loot without large amounts of friction. The game loop is entirely based around getting loot you want, not loot you need. If you could deterministically make or find the gear you want without friction the game would just be called Diablo 4. Which is a really fun game for a couple days till you finish everything there is to do because you have all the gear you will ever need to push endgame. If/when this game gets an endgame, deterministic loot would trivialize it just like Diablo 4 sadly.

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I’m 100% sure that Grinding Only makes sense IF it doesn’t compromise the experience.

Adding grindy mechanics just to prolong the life of the game at the expense of the quality of the experience It’s terrible, and that’s what happened in the beta.

A lot of players, faced with the amount of work needed to get the build they want, even if they still wanted to play, either gave up or started over with a new character rather than working aimlessly because of the RNG (and this problem was there even before the change that limits rerolls, it was just less evident).

In My system In post game you have the possibility to make the “Complete” build you want, allowing you to experiment and be creative, but to get the “Prefect” Builds there are also many hours of gameplay, and if you want to get all the Big gems it takes at least another 100 hours of gameplay, and if you really want to get to have all the possible combinations with the big gems, that means you have to have 6 copies of each big gem which is several hundred hours of gameplay.

The system I proposed is not perfectly deterministic, but it is reliable enough not to be frustrating, It’s designed to make you progress and be rewarded on each step instead of being lost in a sea of ​​RNG where every time you seem to get close to your goal it’s thrown back and you have to start over again. Read the discussion with Steven Hunt, if you want to understand some details that you may not have caught from the main topic.

My system encourages players to continue playing, and does not make the game die immediately after finishing the story, and at the same time makes the experience of playing through the story better, The player does not have all the options at his disposal but he has enough options to make choices and have fun with the possibilities that the system provides him.

In the Beta (and partly also in the current system) During the story, the game incentivizes (almost forces) you to do the best with what you find, but the player doesn’t make any choices; it’s always the RNG that chooses for them, and if players don’t follow the RNG’s guidance they are essentially doing a challenge run.

A bit of a Rant:

Realistic and not particularly unfortunate experience In the beta system where you try to roleplay or to only use the weapons you like:

You Are trying to make a build that suits your preferences? Too bad, it really seems like your weapon, that you just tried to enchant, has a curse now that makes it unusable, You found 20 embers, you use them all, but you can’t find an acceptable curse, but don’t worry, you can craft it away with two wolf claws. You don’t know where the wolves are?

keep playing and you will find them, when you play with a weapon you don’t like just because it scales with the same attributes as the weapon you want to use. You found the wolves, but they didn’t drop the wolf claws? What a shame, you should go back to the same area in 2 hours (repeat until you have the wolf claws).

You build the weapon, you don’t enchant it anymore because you’re traumatized and instead you put gems in it.

You play a bit everything is fine until you get to a new area and it doesn’t seem like you do too little damage, the weapons you find around are at lv 9-10 but yours is at lv 4-5, You go to upgrade it, you upgrade it a few times but then you need new materials at random and depending on the RNG you may or may not have them. Too bad, it really seems like you don’t have enough material to upgrade it. Go kill this mob. The mob Didn’t drop what you need? Too bad, try again in 2 hours, and repeat until you don’t have the material you need.

Now you can go back to doing what you wanted to do from the beginning, Among all the random loot you find an interesting weapon, and you consider using it, unfortunately it is already enchanted and has a curse and after having rerolled 20 times you were unable to find an acceptable curse (during the rerolls the same curse reappeared 7 times). You try to see if it is worth crafting it, you find out that it requires the same resources you just used to bring your weapon to the right level, you abandon the idea and continue to use the weapon that you have been using up to now.

Oh and of course you did all this dressed like a fucking idiot, because if you had even tried to have a nice armor, either you would have been left with an incredibly weak armor for the whole game or you would have had to waste the same time you had to do for your weapon with your armor.

I avoid the problem by completely ignoring the fact that my gear is under leveled because I have 600 hours on the game and I don’t need good stats to win, but essentially if you want to play according to your preferences you’re doing a challenge run.

It’s the death of roleplay.

I know almost nothing about D4, I’m not interested in the game. The only things I know have been said by players in this forum, and it seems that the enchantment system is similar and is RNG based and many don’t like RNG, and then those who say the game is easy to trivialize, and that the combat becomes monotonous, and it seems that everyone for one reason or another has a love-hate relationship with that game.

But If the game has 100 hours of good experiences, it will be played for 100 hours. If it has 500 hours, it will be played for 500 hours. But sooner or later you have to let go of a game. There is no point in trying to create immortal games at the expense of the quality of the experience.

General reflection on what kind of game is NRFTW

Many people who played D4 saw NRFTW and thought it was Diablo-like, and tried it for that. Many people saw that NRFTW saw the Souls-style combat and thought it was isometric Souls-like, and tried it for that.

But I think that NRFTW is a mix of Souls + MMORPG without the “massive” + RogueLite.

I personally was attracted by the combat and not by the RPG systems I like Soulslikes, and I like the replayability that the RogueLike systems give.

If NRFTW wants to focus even more on replay ability it should do so through the Rogue mechanics it has available and not through repetitive grinding.

Crucible has the potential to become a true RogueLite, similar to Minecraft Dungeons.

But essentially, almost everything this game has in common with MMORPGs either doesn’t interest me, or is slightly annoying, or creates serious problems:

  • Inventory management: Can be fixed but its causing problems for stupid reasons (see: Ichor System Balancing Solution)
  • Farming resources: It’s not fun to spend time knocking down trees, now they’ve improved the mechanics a lot and it’s something that I can accept but it will never be fun.
  • Housing: It’s okay, but doesn’t interest me, It seems to make some sense only in multiplayer.
  • Crafting: It Can be fixed But is Very Problematic
  • Daily missions: I don’t understand, they must be tied to real days, and not with time spent in game.
  • All the mechanics that require a Timer: Why? I understand waiting 10 min for a matter of immersion that they are actually building the thing, but 2h could mean that if I only have an hour to play that day then I have to go back the next day to be able to interact with the vendor, for no real reason.
  • Grinding: It is not balanced correctly.

And then this game also brings with it many of the problems of Soulslikes.

And the Roguelike RNG is not easy to contextualize in this game and in fact the RNG often causes problems.

The potential of this game is very high and obviously the combat, the level design and the story are 10/10 but there is a lot of work to do in all the other areas.