For that reason I simply learned them by heart… by just actively parrying until dying for multiple enemies and their multiple attacks (with each having its own timing). Repair, rinse repeat.
That’s how you learn to parry for the most part in games. Basic usable parry in e.g. ER is what - 133ms (daggers), 166ms (small shields), 200ms (carian, golden) with analogous windups in reverse order. Not mentioning 66ms with large windups for some other weapon classes and basic parry on medium shields (now that’s hard to be consistent).
You won’t learn that without trial and error.
Comparing to ER, Thymesia, Sifu - the parry difficulty in this game is well … kind of a joke.
There are people who are not as stubborn as me and simply do not want to do that because… and this is the important point… it is lame!
That’s how parrying is in souls games. It’s lame for you, it’s not lame for others - keep that in mind.
But is it fun… no! One cannot parry everything due to what feels like inconsistencies in the timings. For me that does not feel rewarding. I would be much happier with some less “ludicrously overpowered” result (your own words), but more consistency in the parrying.
Again, not fun for you. Why are you even doing that then ?
Subjectively I would be happy with some nerf bats to what one can do after parry, without touching parry timings.
You can white knight the parry all you want. I know I did not make all the tons of other posts saying the same thing I have. Further, I beat the Echo Knight just fine through rolling. But, it would be fun to have a more consistent parry system in place.
Thank you for trying to engage with the discussion now.
Problem being that you are not really engaging. Most of what you say is focused on “get gud”, instead of “what are (perceived) issues” and “how could we solve them efficiently?”.
Players often excel at recognizing when something feels off, even if they can’t always pinpoint the exact issue. If the solution is solely to improve player skill without considering approachability, it might limit broader engagement with the mechanic, which is why we were talking about why people might not be happy to engage with the mechanic as is.
To go further:
We have an Early Access title on our hands that is not, and i repeat not advertised as a Souls Like first and foremost, but an ARPG, which are usually known for strategic build choices and play style adaptations, not split second timing windows. Also, who says Wicked has to copy other games parry systems?
At least we agree on controls. The rest of your statement is a subjective opinion, I personally do not agree with and that ignores all mentioned factors.
The windup time of most animations, tells and hitboxes of animations are inconsistent; Not inherently but in comparison. You’re entitled to your opinion. I agree learning to parry should take some time and dedication - But how much time and dedication is a totally different discussion.
It seems there’s a misunderstanding. The focus is not just on the outcome of the parry, but also on the consistency of success across various situations.
This translates to “get gud” or “you play the wrong build”. Completely denying approachability. Also its unintuitive more mobile builds that should be expected to excel at parrying do not have any advantage and are instead punished more heavily.
Yes of course it is subjective. To remind you, we are talking about why people might not engage with the mechanic in its current state. If you lower the barrier of entry and effect, more people would engage with it and have the chance to come to like it. Simple as that. Effort can come in different forms and currently, it can simply be tedious and not interesting. Also I think the mechanic in its current state lacks the complexity and customization to fit well into an ARPG.
Parry windows not being tight is your opinion, not a fact. Them being perceived as tight by others is a fact. Also its a big difference to scan whether or not an enemy is about to attack → Focus on the action or on the other hand to pinpoint at which precise frame you have to parry → focus on frames/snapshots of animations.
When you are gathering materials you are progressing the game. When you are effectively and intuitively dodging you are progressing the game. When you practice to parry you don’t necessarily progress the game. It may even come to a full stop. Depending on the level of entry and how often you are required to master of new parry timings, it can be a big diversion.
Good that you framed it this way, as having to analyze the animations of enemies (because the parry window is not apparent/intuitive) - which is a technical process - directly breaks immersion.
Again, doing the crucible progresses the game and if done well directly yields tangible rewards. Learning to parry does not. Might be a minor issue. But can be annoying and make the mechanic less approachable nonetheless.
I’m suggesting ways to make parrying more approachable and intuitive, rather than strictly buffing it. We seem to be looking at the issue from different angles.
This feedback is based on general ARPG principles. The mechanic might benefit from being more approachable, intuitive, and offering more nuanced engagement. Optionally more complex, customizable and in line with RPG expectations over player skill. Imo its good, to have as many people as possible be able to engage with core mechanics of the game. You can have a lower / more intuitive barrier of entry with higher ceiling. Just because a mechanic can be enjoyed by some, does not mean it cannot be improved or reiterated in innovative ways.
Out of curiosity, I wonder if you complain the same about parry in every other souls game. Is this your first one maybe ?
I wonder where that insane ‘everything must be “approachable” by everyone’ is coming. You only end with numbed pulp liked by no one, maybe except sunday couch gamers.
Souls games are ARPGs. A subset of the genre, which has as many definitions as one wants either way.
Think that will be the last round of going in circles from me. It’s waste of time as we won’t agree either way. I might make some longer video with mostly parrying just to prove you wrong.
Few highlights:
Not really. Parry windows have precise activation time. It’s not a matter of perception. And relatively to other game this one is pretty generous.
The rest I have no idea what you even want. You watch enemy and act accordingly. You don’t need to find “precise frame”. That’s it. Like in every other game with this mechanic.
And again, comparing to e.g. Elden Ring, that - depending on equipment/parry ash of war variation - can have windows roughly from 66ms to 200ms and windups from 133ms to 200ms - this game is pretty damn fucking nice already.
Parrying is as approachable and intuitive as it can be (you press one button/key). The rest is in players’ hands.
Putting it bluntly - you are looking into dumbing down the game to your level (regardless of the reasons behind, laziness being likely the main reason). At the same time ruining the fun for other people.
Keep that in mind.
Every enemy has different attack patterns, speed, variation, hitbox activation. By design.
Parry per equipment class has the same characteristics. By design.
All is well.
I wasn’t talking about the outcome, but the execution. You can get near 100% consistent. Like tons of other players did.
No it doesn’t. “Approachability” is the same (you press button).
Also “Mobile” builds should excel ? Why ? “Mobile” “builds” can trivially have enough defense to give you a bit survivability. If you go full glass cannon, you reap what you sow (including failed dodges, blocking too late and so on). Put some points into equip load and/or money into enchants, so you can go “mobile” with some defense.
What barrier of entry ? There is no barrier of entry. There is only a barrier of “I’m too lazy to learn enemies and when to parry them”.
Neither does learning how/when to dodge, block or attack.
You are comparing apples to car tires.
From the top of my head, I played Dark Souls I, Elden Ring, Sekiro, Salt and Sanctuary, Nioh and Bloodborne. I didn’t complete every single one, but personally had no complaints about parry in any of these games. But none of these games I expected to be approachable. This is my first Early Access game of this new style of game though, which again ist not primarily advertised as a Souls game. And Wicked is precisely the game that can make Soulslikes and for example the parry mechanics within them more approachable by bridging the gap, by connecting it with ARPG mechanics, which I love about the game. Which makes me so passionate about it. Parry being one of the systems left not up to that standard.
As i explained, Wicked has the potential to be THE approachable Soulslike.
Things can be approachable while still have a high skill ceiling and slick design. So is that really an issue? Do you think it is a good thing for the game to exclude people from core mechanics?
Definition wise you might be right. Expectation wise not at all. Soulslikes are a very special kind of flavour and not what comes to mind for me and obviously many others when thinking about the Genre. Also, its totally possible to have satisfying Soulslike elements without destroying generic ARPG expectations. Its a greyzone, to be sure, but that is exactly why we are able to have this discussion and it is not solved beforehand.
You are the only one running in circles here. This is not about me being unable to be successful with engaging with the mechanic (for me personally it is not difficult, its simply unnecessarily tedious, unintuitive, uninteresting and lame). None of your “get gud” talk or videos that show you are able to use the mechanic effectively have any counterweight. Actually you are proving my point, about how binary the mechanic is.
The goal should be to have the mechanic in a good state overall. For me that includes its state from the viewpoint of more generic ARPG’s, more specifically character and build identity, customization and every other angle i already described.
Subjective and a very narrow frame of comparison.
Definition of intuition: “using or based on what one feels to be true even without conscious reasoning; instinctive”
If you have to practice arguably precise timings on a case by case bases, that is practically the opposite of intuitive.
Talking about fun:
Again, the mechanic could be more approachable without lowering the skill ceiling, if that is your primary issue. Why don’t you look at it from that angle instead of seeing every possible change as an issue?
For example, if parry timing would be affected by a stat, you can opt for more damage if you are better at that mechanic. Or there could be a perfect parry window on top of the normal parry.
There are ways to solve this that don’t ruin the fun for people who want their parry skill to shine. If the exclusion part on the other hand makes the game fun for you, I am really wasting my time here.
I repeat myself, that is not what i was talking about. And that is not the issue.
Approachability does not mean to know what button to press. It does mean, its intuitive to press said button at the right time.
From a character identity pov they should. ARPG’s by definition are Role Playing Games. If player skill is completely detached from character skill, that is an issue imo.
Learning is not the only issue. You are simply ignoring all others. They have been stated.
There is little to no learning necessary to dodge, block or attack effectively, you can intuitively learn on the go. All of these are far more approachable than parrying. Especially because you can dodge preemptively, you can attack preemptively, attack within clear, safe windows to start.
No.
Denying something doesn’t mean it does not exist.
I would encourage you to think about the issue from a constructive and creative point of view:
What do you like about the parry mechanic as is?
Why do you like it? Pinpoint why exactly.
What are things other players seem to have issues with?
→ Adapt a point of view as needed.
Are there compromises, that you could live with?
Are there alternatives that could even improve your experience?
Like I said, I’m not gonna run in circles with you, reiterating the same stuff once again. You are impregnated to concept of people liking parry mechanics in its current form (which already is very easy) that brings some semblance of difficulty (not much) and requires some effort (not much either).
What you want to do is make parry easier to execute - regardless of the words, excuses and wriggling you use. Now coming down to “somebody think of those poor casual gamers ! oh noes !”.
Even bigger (than already really big) parry window => EASIER. From the current state of things it would become infallible - meaning you can’t fail it. A numbed down, riskless, boring, requiring near 0 effort shred of mechanic.
It doesn’t matter at this point if the rewards are nerfed, scaled down or none.
NO
That’s not what parrying is about, whether in this or other games.
Spend some time and learn it. If you don’t like it then simply don’t and move on.
The goal should be to have the mechanic in a good state overall.
There are ways to solve this
IT IS in a good state. Easy to get into and actually pretty easy to master.
There is nothing to solve, as there is no issue.
Your dislike with how parry works in games like this one is not a game’s issue.
Wicked has the potential to be THE approachable Soulslike.
Yea, a numbed down hunk of a game where everything is easy. And for the love of the goodness, let’s hope it won’t end this way.
Ever thought about having a challenging game for a change ?
Ever though of players that would skip it because of dumbing down ?
If you have to practice arguably precise timings on a case by case bases, that is practically the opposite of intuitive.
You are supposed to look at the monitor when you play. It might come as a shock to you, but different enemies have different animations. If you spent more time looking at those enemies and what they are doing (instead of complaining on forums), you would see how intuitive, approachable and easy learning parrying in this game is.
I didn’t complete every single one, but personally had no complaints about parry in any of these games.
Then you either haven’t or rarely parried in those games (or are just flat out lying), as those games fall into the same “issues” you have with this game - and too far bigger extent, especially your “case by case being not intuitive”.
Anyway, the only way I’d agree with this kind of dumbing down of the game is if it was done via difficulty slider, with the following constraints:
selected difficulty is both per-realm and per-character
it’s not changeable
you can join only realms matching your character difficulty
Then add ‘urinalists’ or ‘ign’ difficulty at the bottom and do whatever you want with the game. I’m actually all for that, as every slider has two ends.
Lemme correct that.
Yes, while not all ARPGs are Souls games! some of them are, NRftW including.
Do you realize, that all you are doing is promoting your own subjective opinion, that everything is fine, when obviously people have complaints, without any form of vision, providing no sincere arguments and never truly engaging with the discussion? Making missguided assumptions, blatantly attacking and insulting people… these are all more than weak moves.
Your behaviour doesn’t reflect well on yourself and the kind of players you represent.
At least people can get some idea about, which kinds of players are attracted to the mechanic as it currently is.
Clearly wasting my time and energy with you trying. Have a good day.
I think a parry is a parry because of the nature of its risk/reward skill check. No different than souls, parrying exists, is not a requirement, but certainly helps. And a super welcome addition as a base mechanic not locked behind item types as in souls.
I disagree with the idea that parry needs to be universal because it’s no longer a parry. If dodge and parry do the same thing but one CCs the opponent… Why have a dodge.
My only gripe with it in Wicked is we have a moving camera and it can mess with your timings at on occasion so maybe stronger tells in animations could help.
You could treat parry more like an one of those action hack n slash (input appears) (hit that input) interactions… It’s been done. Can’t say I’m a fan and don’t think it fits this game personally. I don’t think wicked is meant to play itself.
I think a healthier version of progression might be a hit box mode. Something to air learning that doesn’t change the core mechanics of the game.
Agreed. Baseline parry is great. Though to go further, different kinds of parries depending on your gear would rock. Would be nice to get rewarded for carrying different gear for good defense vs different enemies.
Agreed. Would be neat to have some customization options though.
Camera can be iffy at some points. Yeah some of the animations could use stronger tells / more expected hitboxes.
Yeah that would be pretty boring. Although i am not strictly opposed to colorcoding/slurs to different types of attacks, to open up more design space there.
For something like a parry mechanic engaging live decisions could be a great option, in addition to timing, to lower the weight there.
Parry could be direction based (what direction are you facing/parrying and which direction is the attack moving in), distance based (from what distance is the attack coming from), animation based (enemy and own gear/abilities affect the applicable parry style).
Edit: As it is now it practically boils down to what you are describing - A quicktime event, where you press the Button at the right time. We have 0 depth. Might as well just show the Button on screen.
A hit box mode could be very useful as a testing/prep tool!
Is parry not directional? I’ve honestly never tried, and just assumed I needed to be facing the attack.
Does your parry window get bigger with better weapons/shields? Again, I assumed heavier weapon weight would equate to bigger parry windows and so would larger shields.
In this game it’s directional (as opposed to e.g. Wo Long), so you have to be reasonably facing the enemy.
Windup seems identical and 0 or near 0.
Active frames seems to be roughly or identical (having spent lots of time testing these 2h axe wielding guys across different equipment classes, in particular their 360ish swing and near-instant push are nice for this; everything they do can be parried, except 3hit special).
Heavy shields have minimally longer recovery than the other equipment classes. For example you can’t triple-parry those tall guys’ triple smash with them (you can do parry-roll-parry or avoid-parry-parry).
Somewhat facing the attack may be required. But that‘s practically a given, because we have a lock on feature.
So let me clarify:
I don’t see the requirement of facing the attack Yes/No as a truly directional parry. that is binary directionality, that is solved by the lock on feature.
Given said feature, the option we have there is that where you are steering before or while you are parrying could change the direction of the parry animation and make a difference.
As to my knowledge there is practically no depth/progression/customization, so no.
