Mobs are too complex

Mobs are too complex

Mobs, being general enemies encountered outside of scripted bosses and encounters, are too complex. There is that enemy with the worms and the bloated body which i would use as an example. It can attack in a LONG attack chain, which moves the enemy a large distance, it can explode on death, and when it dies it spawns more enemies. This is wayyyy too much for one mob to have. Compare this to the boars, where it can do 2 things attack in a short chain, and charge. This enemy is both manageable, still deadly with unexpected charges, and doesnt feel cheap to lose against.

So you want easy mobs

the bloated torn mob has SUPER telegraphed attacks, not to mention the very obvious wind up his whole arm cocks back

While I don’t agree that the other mobs are overly complex, the one this person is talking about is spot on. This mob chains attacks that chunk away massive amounts of health, has that wind-up strike that launches you into the stratosphere, and on top of all that, it features a post death effect that explodes and even spawns additional enemies.

I’m strongly against after death effects in general and believe they should only appear on bosses or at most, on bounty-hunted mobs.

How would having it on a boss be better? Getting one shot by echo knight the first time you fight him when he enters his second phase was awesome. I liked learning about this post death effect at the end of a long crucible run. I was excited to do it all over again just for a chance to actually see the second phase.

There is one mob with a post death effect, and they show it to you before many players even fight one. Those additional enemies are slow and hardly do any damage. The death effect hurts enemies around it, which adds a layer of strategy: kill, get out, let it knockdown everyone, and then clean up.

As far as complexity, this game is advertised as a souls like. Learning movesets is the name of the game. Just be patient and give it time. It’ll be easy peasy before you know it.

Now for those flurry attacks which other mobs also have, I can understand the frustration, especially if you have low poise. You can get trapped in them with no way to roll out, leading in many cases to a one shot. Rolling away gets you trapped too, so you have to condition yourself to roll to the side or learn the parry timing, which isn’t too bad since all of these are heavily telegraphed. I find the enemies that spin flurry and dodge everything, the ones you fight for the first time in the glades, to be far more troublesome than the bloat boys.

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The bloated enemy kills me so often. Especially that long chain attack. It can take me out from full health in one go on most of my builds. I hate them

However, I love that they exist. It is so nice having a deadly basic mob that you can defeat easily when you understand how they work. No matter how storng I become, I can still die to them if I’m careless. This is wonderful.

It reminds me of the weakest enemy in the beginning of Dark Souls (one). There is a simple hallowed zombie enemy with a broken straight sword. The weakest of the weak. They have an attack where they swing their weapon wildly, and if it hits solidly you die. They are weak otherwise, but can kill you if you are careless.

This is great. I can’t stand when a game is full of basic trash mobs that don’t threaten you at all. I like how I have to pay attention to the enemies in Wicked. I wish there were more examples of complex ā€˜basic’ mobs.

The only mob in Wicked I would change is the witches. They destroy you with their extremely powerful fire magic, and have a multi hit basic attack at close range. All of their attacks interrupt mine when I’m wearing lighter armor. Everything they do destroys you, but they are not interrupted by your own attacks. I feel they should have less poise.

As for the after death explosion, that’s some of the coolest flavor I’ve seen in an enemy. They are a bloated corpse with living entrails. When they die, they can no longer contain the bloat of their pestilence and they explode. Their entrails remain alive and continue attacking you. I love everything about that.

Weather a ā€˜weak’ mob should be challenging or not is, I think, a matter of setting choice. Not every game should have trash mobs and bosses with nothing in between. Some worlds benefit from having a more devastating middle ground. Other worlds benefit from having a wide gap between the bottom line and the bosses. I think Wicked deserves to have truly dangerous ā€˜weak’ mobs.

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I am directly opposed to this opinion.

I think after death effects should never be on bosses or bounty mobs. The truly challenging encounters should end when you kill them. There is nothing worse than finally killing a tough mob after several tries and just dying to their corpse and losing all of your rewards.

After death effects should only be on mobs that are just wandering around, so that you have the chance to learn their effects and adapt. If I killed a bounty and they exploded and kill me, I would just stop doing bounties. It wouldn’t be worth it.

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100% agree on this. Imagine you finally beat an act boss after struggling, using everything you’ve got, the loot and exp drops and you are euphoric. And then.. BOOM

that’s not how you want those moments to end

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Yeah, it just feels like a big middle finger if you finally finish a big fight and you just die for no good reason.

You see their health bar finally empty, their death animation starts, you start to celebrate and then - you are dead next to the loot you can’t have. Deflated. The only appropriate response to that is alt+F4.

Meanwhile, if you die by the explosion of a weak enemy it fills you with a genocidal rage and you go out with your halo pistol hell bent on head shotting every singe one of those damn suicide grunts - wait, that’s a different game.

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For bosses I said ā€œat mostā€, so i think generaly after death effects should be avoided.

And after death effect should absolutely not be on mobs.

Go and ask POE2 players how are they feeling about it. I’m sure they would have something to say on this subject.

No.

Those guys used to terrify me before I learned their patterns. Same with gloam kings. At 1300hrs I still respect the witches and have to think about any melee where they are involved: and this is GREAT.

I’ll go 180 degrees and say I simply can’t wait to see what new torments await us with 1.0.

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This game is more like Dark Souls than POE, so I’ll go ask the Dark Souls players for their opinion if I’m asking anyone.

POE has dozens or more trash mobs on the screen at once. Dark Souls, like Wicked, has a very small number of mobs with telegraphed attacks. You can’t compare the two.

POE is fine having a bottom line of trash mobs with nothing really tough until the bosses, while Wicked benefits from having actually challenging mobs wandering around. Typically I never see more than 3-5 mobs in a single fight in this game(and that many is very rare), and if one explodes they harm and knock down their allies. Even the elites in POE are in packs of 5 or more.

Like I said, I believe after death effects are more related to the setting anyways. Honestly, the POE setting kind of fits with after death effects too, so I think they belong in that game as well. To be fair, I don’t play POE at all, so I should not have the right to say what does or doesn’t belong there, but this forum is about Wicked, not POE.

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Obviously i know this is more like Dark Souls than poe, but after death effect is still after death effect.

The particular mob we were talking is that bloated mob which has already too many attacks and knokbacks atop of that it has after death effect and even spawns another enemies.

I know that you think that everything should be extra difficult, but not everyone is looking for a extra difficult game.

I’m sure that Thomas said they will add another layer of difficulty via realm settings, so not every mob should feel like a boss to us that enjoy the game as it is.

For the sake of the game i just hope they will continue with this approach but also offer people like you more difficulty settings.

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Bloated Abomination’s chain slap sequence does way too much damage for being an attack that immediately stunlocks anyone who’s not wearing plate into all the hits.

On normal difficulty, on a leather character at 54% physical DR, the bloated abomination chain slaps come close to deleting 85% of my HP just on its own disregarding other enemies, and this wouldn’t be bad if the first hit didn’t immediately lock you into an unbreakable stun status where you are forced to take in all the subsequent hits.

The same happens with the pickaxe prisoner, and now the Prisoner Witch since her poise was massively buffed and she cannot be effectively interrupted out of the attack sequence on solo play.

The pickaxe prisoner spin also staggers immediately any non-plate and forces taking the subsequent hit.

Rematching the Egg if you get hit by his spinning swing sends you into staggered into cloth/leather. Same happens for any Echo Knight swing like the triple stab or when he does multi-spin after his charge stab even if you parried the charge stab since he now recovers almost immediately and goes into the spin while your rune attack punishment is still mid-animation.

In general on solo play, enemy poise is way overbuffed, Echo Knight is effectively now unbreakable on solo while on coop it is still trivially easy to stagger him (the reason parry was nerfed and poise was buffed, though for some reason you didn’t restrict these balance changes to coop to not break solo play experience).

Baseline player poise is nonexistent outside plate. A single enemy swing hit or two will stagger or break poise altogether if it’s an elite enemy. Rune attacks with long animations since the buff to enemy poise now are worthless as they get interrupted all the time by enemy swings since rune attacks no longer stagger even regular mobs.

As a result the rune attacks that now get used are quick frontloaded rune attacks that don’t have much animation commit, and rune attack variety has been reduced as a result.

With the buff to enemy poise you also get a lot more input reading dodges from enemies just arbitrarily wasting your hard earned focus. You wait for an enemy to finish an attack animation to use a rune attack during their rest period, and they just dash dodge out of it halfway through the animation. And they do this repeatedly.

The Prisoner Witch is back to being insufferably spammy with her teleports and it’s outrageous that an enemy that can apply such overtuned burned damage can take 2-3 2H weapon swings to the face and still continue to chain cast, or that I can finish a full wand attack or staff or dagger sequence and this mob has not been staggered during the attack.

Ranged, mobile high threat mobs that accompany elites and other dangerous enemies should be easily disposed of and interrupted once I put in the work of closing the distance to them. It is ridiculous that enemies with this much pressure damage and the ability to dash half a room away two or three times in less than 10 seconds wasting precious player stamina sprinting to them are able to just keep attacking despite being hit.

No, mobs should not become easier.

NRFTW follows a diffirent design philosophy, here you do not fight hoards of filler mobs instead each enemy shall be a threat to the player.

This is not Diablo/PoE/LastEpoch and NRFTW should not go this road.

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Poe is about screen clearing skills, whereas Wicked is about tactical moment to moment combat.

While after death affects aren’t something every monster should have, I think it’s fine on memorable monsters in very small packs.

These bloated guys are super memorable, partially because of the explosion. I think it’d also be weird if the worms just randomly crawl around after the death without an explosion.

I’m easy mode the explosion should perhaps do MUCH less damage, I could see a case for that. I’m hard mode, I think it’s fine as-is

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The mob used in the example is a MOB, not a mini boss. Mini bosses and bosses for that matter justified their existence by said lvl of complexity and rarity. It is encountered too frequently to be that complex. If it is supposed to be a mini boss, its way to common for that.

no one said or wants this game to be POE.

Reducing the complexity of the few mods that have high complexity or frequent spawn rate doesn’t suddenly make the game a diablo like.

Even in dark souls the mobs DO NOT have this level of complexity.

and that is my point.

There is some mob encountered way to frequently, to have that lvl of complexity.

If said mob was encountered less frequently, or had a little less in its toolkit, i don’t think anyone would complain.

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The bloated enemies do not have a frequent spawn rate. There’s only ever at most two of them at once.

The term ā€˜mob’ almost doesn’t apply to Wicked. Mob comes from a word that basically means ā€˜a disorganized crowd.’ In Wicked enemies are more like characters. There is nothing wrong with a character being ā€˜complex’ enough to have 3 different attacks.

In Dark souls enemies have a minimum of three different attacks, even if they are qualified to be called ā€˜mobs.’ Sure, there’s not an enemy in Dark Souls that explodes, but Wicked is not Dark Souls. Wicked has it’s own flavor and style.

I can’t really get my head around why you are saying this is ā€˜too complex.’ It’s not that hard to just roll away when you kill the bloat, right?

I honestly feel like enemies could be more complex and it would benefit the game. Maybe not the enemies we have now, they seem perfectly fine. If we get new enemies in the new areas when 1.0 releases, I seriously hope they are more complex and ramp that complexity up so that enemies near the end of the game are close to twice as complex.

There are already enemies that summon allies (the bird folk) and enemies that can seemingly endlessly chain attacks (bounty boar guys) as well as enemies that can teleport (witches) and the enemies that explode into weaker enemies (sirens and bloats).

I can’t wait to see more things like this. Without this ā€˜complexity’ Wicked would not be any different from some basic Diablo-like loot run game.

no one wants to screen clear in this game.

no not every enemy should have said on death effects.

these enemies should be memorable, but its stops being so, when the enemy is everywhere, and feels at times, more unfair and potentially difficult than some of the bosses.

You make a great point that these enemies that have so much in their toolkit, should have the toolkit reduced on lower modes.