I'm so frustrated by the build and crafting system

Wicked Feedback
1

1: Go to No Rest for the Wicked tools and theory craft a build.
2: Collect dozens of Embers and pieces donor gear.
3: Craft a set of gear (Hope that RNG is on your side for both item level and facets.)
4: Upgrade item levels if necessary using materials.
5: Transmute gear to Magical/Plagued status using respective Embers.
6: Sort through multiple vaults of dozens of pieces of donor gear for the item enchantments that you want.
7: Move the enchantments that you want, one at a time, up to 24 times in total, using Essence Embers.
8: Reroll negative perks if necessary using Fallen Embers.
9: [Deleted for clarity]
10: Reallocate stat points for weight and proficiency using Fallen Embers.
11: Finally test the build in combat.
12: Realize that the build kind of sucks and just gets me killed.
13: Realize that I used a massive amount of time, crafting materials, donor gear, and Embers to build a loadout that kind of sucks and just gets me killed, and I donā€™t have enough materials or Embers left to build another set.

The whole process is tedious and frustrating, and so much of it comes down to RNG; RNG for Ember drops, RNG for crafting material drops, RNG for donor gear drops, RNG for enchantment values, RNG for crafted item levels, RNG for upgrade materials, RNG for the facets, RNG for rerolls; then, after you have all the RNG pieces, comes the tedium; level up the gear, move the enchantments, level up the enchantments, reroll stat points for weight level; then, after all that work, then you can finally go out and test the build and get an idea if your time and investment was well used or wasted.

Build crafting is the heart of the end game, but I find it frustrating and tedious, requiring dozens of pieces of gear, Embers, and user inputs; itā€™s powerful but itā€™s time consuming, and there are so many materials required that I rarely have enough left over to try something else. If I used my best pieces of donor gear for enhancements, those pieces of donor gear are gone, I need to go out and farm more before I can try another set; if I used all my Embers, I need to go out and farm more before I can try something else; if I used all my materials, I need to go out and farm more before I can craft more gear.

For most games, build crafting is one of my favorite parts, itā€™s something I look forward to, but in NRftW itā€™s complicated, itā€™s slow, itā€™s expensive, and as I said, itā€™s tedious. Iā€™ve been in end-game for sixty hours and Iā€™ve built two loadouts because the system is like trying to climb a glass wall.

I donā€™t have any solutions to propose except that we be given enough materials that messing up doesnā€™t leave us high and dry or reloading a backed up save file to get our materials back. Maybe smaller levels of RNG/variation on enhancements (So instead of enhancements being 5%-15% the range is reeled in to 10%-15%, instead of weapons being craftable at levels 4-16 theyā€™re reeled in to 11-16,) and higher drop rates of materials and Embers, so weā€™re not left empty handed after a bad build.

Maybe I just have too much ADHD to enjoy the system.

Edit: I may not have been joking when I said ā€œI have too much ADHD to enjoy this system,ā€ the fact is I find it overwhelming, requiring dozens of choices, valuations, and steps to complete one simple build. Reviewing dozens, of pieces of gear, moving dozens of enhancements, trying to decide between +Crit and +Crit Damage, weighing whether this enhancement is worth one of my very limited stock of Essence Embers, remembering to check the item level, remembering whether Iā€™ve got better than +3 Armor Penetration somewhere else, going from box to box to check inventories, it makes what should be a simple and fun process instead overwhelming and time consuming.

There are just so many variables, and variations on the variables, and permanent decisions with definite downsides. Engaging with the current build crafting system is painful.

Edit 2: Since this has been moved to suggestions, here are some suggestions:

  1. Smarter storage options, give us search and filter functions for our banks
  2. More Ember drops in general, give us enough to make mistakes and experiment
  3. More crafting materials in general, give us enough materials to experiment or screw up without setting us back
  4. More clarity on potential ranges (Let us know itā€™s 3% out of a potential 15%, to make it easier to judge gear at a glance)
  5. An ā€œAffix Walletā€ where we can store and search our Emberā€™d Affixes
  6. Less variation in Affix levels (Instead of 5%-20%, make Affix ranges tighter, like 15%-20%)
  7. Less variation in weapon crafting levels (Instead of level 4-16, make ranges tighter, like 11-16)
  8. A deterministic way to find Facets, even a little less RNG would be helpful
  9. Dismantle gear, a way to retrieve some of our materials if our build doesnā€™t work as desired
8 Likes
2

From what Iā€™m reading, the challenge youā€™re having is that you feel like you need perfect gear.

You can finish this game with terrible gear, so there really is no reason to spend radiant embers etc before just running into a Pestilence zone and trying the build.

I think the system is slightly more tedious than it needs to be, but thatā€™s more because of QoL. Eg I think they should definitely add a highly functional ember specific stash and a scalable enchantment specific stash, which would make it much more efficient and user friendly to store and use those resources.

I get your pain, but I think itā€™s mostly self inflicted and partially by Moon (which is fair in early access, but the should definitely improve this for 1.0)

1 Like
3

I completely agree. Now it feels like the game doesnā€™t want me to experiment with crafting gear and builds at all. I am not a big fan of endgame, but making the whole playthrough with collecting all resources possible just to scrape together barely enough for 1 build without even maxing it out is too slow.

3 Likes
4

I agree with your argument. Perfect gear requires time. But it does not have to be an endgame only activity. I want some buildmaking while playing the main game. Now the game forces you to save everything you find in order to maybe make something interesting after you beat it.

2 Likes
5

No, thatā€™s not the challenge Iā€™m having. I donā€™t mind not having best in slot, I do mind the tedium of trying to craft a build. Itā€™s not that Iā€™m bothered by creating a bad build, itā€™s that so much time, effort, and grinding is necessary to create a build in the first place, and that thereā€™s so little left over after the fact.

I finished the game sixty hours ago, now Iā€™m in end-game, and it seems like the point of end-game is to experiment with builds and see what works well in Crucible and Pestilence Zones.

As you say, I didnā€™t even touch crafting during the campaign, I didnā€™t need to, but build crafting definitely plays a role in how well one does in end-game content.

This, plus a searchable in-game inventory system would go a long way. If I could search and compare all the pieces of gear with Armor Penetration on them, it would be a helluva boon, to say nothing of making the actual build crafting much faster and easier.

1 Like
6

I made builds the same way at first. Through that process, I learned to

  • use radiant embers last, after validating the build and exalting
  • dedicate one small chest to each item I am building and put the associated gear with respective enchants in it as I find it
  • wait to find gear with enchants already near max so I wonā€™t need many radiant embers later
  • only exalt after Iā€™ve validated that the build will work
  • use essence embers after enchanting or plaguing since it may get the enchants I want anyway

If you need the gear to be perfected for the build to work, itā€™s not really a strong build. You will find out quickly if it has any problems and can fix them without starting all over. You can validate a build way before having all the resources to max everything out, so you can enjoy using it while also slowing making it better little by little till max.

3 Likes
7

Should I delete the part about Radiant Embers? Because it seems like people think Iā€™m trying for best in slot when thatā€™s the least of my concerns regarding the build crafting system.

I think Iā€™m going to have to rewrite this post from scratch, somehow Iā€™ve given people the wrong impression. :sweat_smile:

What bothers me is mostly the time, tedium, and material costs necessary, and that there is so often so little left over after Iā€™ve finished crafting a build. The whole section about Radiant Embers could be deleted, itā€™s only one step out of so many others.

Even if the step about Radiant Embers was removed I would still find the current iteration of the build crafting system tedious and frustrating; there are just so many steps, and pieces, and materials required just to craft a build in the first place.

1 Like
8

Btw I imagine a lot of this will be fixed by:

  • the class system, which likely moves a lot of the build crafting from enchants to traits
  • Higher tier chests
  • Basic QoL that theyā€™ll certainly work on

All to say, I wouldnā€™t worry too much about about it, but also be prepared for the likelihood that it wonā€™t be properly addressed in the next ~10 months (my estimate for 1.0 release based on available info)

1 Like
9

For embers, if every ember had a corresponding vendor alternative for coins you would release the pressure on finding embers all the time. There are only two 3 embers that do not have vendor equitant.

This might make the embers feel less special though.

1 Like
10

It is absolutely a bloated and tedious system. There has been consistent feedback about it.

Unfortunately, rather than trim the fat, more systems of RNG get layered for every single one that is eased or removed.

Itā€™s a nightmare for inventory and UI management, and itā€™s incredibly tedious for build experimentation since it takes so much for a build to come online.

I donā€™t even know why the embers need to be materials taking up inventory slots and not just currency you use at Eleanor or an enchanting table.

In general so much would be improved with a wallet system that takes in currencies away from the inventory, and honestly the gear hording for essence embers needs to go and we need an affix codex where we unlock and upgrade affixes that are then applied via enchanting.

What I see here as well is a misapprehension for letting players salvage gear for mats, since it will reduce the amount of overworld farming material nodes they would otherwise do, and in the process they put in a worse version of salvaging with these essence embers.

A lot of the design philosophy seems to be about emphasizing and escalating friction, and thatā€™s a mistake.

3 Likes
11

I can accept all the RNG if they would add a reset checkpoint on exalting then I would be more encouraged to farm things but now it feels like a big burden.

1 Like
12

Builds donā€™t even need exalting to be strong, so it seems like the issue is the amount of resources it takes to perfect a build, not whether or not it takes a lot to create a strong or viable build. I know plenty of players are going to obsess over reaching perfection, but I personally accepted the fact that if I wanted one enchant to get exalted 3 times, I was going to have to build it over and over again, probably at least 5 times. Iā€™ve generally only wanted to do this with one piece. I canā€™t imagine the drive or commitment it would take to do it on all of them. Iā€™m glad itā€™s not necessary to be strong.

13

Im not talking for now but 1.0 it wont even enough to exalt for most of the builds. Cuz everything in the game will be doubled so yah rng of the exalt will be even worse.

14

For me these 2 points feels very fair. I would refraise those into 2 problems.

  1. Storage for crafting. I dont mind storage capacity to be kind of a challange to overcome. But managing storage for potential enchantmets is disaster. No filters, no tabs in stash. You eventually can even run out of space in the house. So there sould be better implementation.
  2. Bricking the build so far feels too punishing. If you failed on assmbling a build you actually cant farm to respec into something and it feels like starting over is better, but does not feel good at all. And if you dont want to follow build guides and try stuff yourself - its a big problem.
1 Like
15

I understand both sides of this argument.

It is definitely expensive and tedious making a new build from scratch. I donā€™t mind this so much, it is does feel prohibitive when considering if you want to try something new.

It is definitely not necessary to ā€˜finishā€™ a build to test it out. You can easily make just the core elements of a build without doing all the extra stuff in order to test itā€™s effectiveness.

What I would suggest for the time being; just choose two enchants to focus on for your build and test them out without fretting over the other half of the enchants you need.

For instance, if you wanna try an elemental build just get the elemental enchants you want on all of your gear. Donā€™t do anything with facets yet, or worry about the other 2/3 enchant slots on everything. Just test your element. If you like the damage you get, you then have an idea of what the next enchant to focus on will be. Is it focus related, or damage resist? Once you have tested one part, you can move on to another. Of course, you do need to consider facets before managing your other enchants, but this is something you can worry about along the way.

I do believe most of these issues will be resolved by 1.0, but even if the crafting system is similar I feel that breaking it up into smaller, more manageable chunks will alleviate a lot of the friction. Not all of it, but a lot of it. It will still be tedious and expensive, but trying to do it all at once is always going to suck. Bite off only what you can chew.

16

This. Especially as you say, ā€˜Bricking a buildā€™.

It is so costly to respec stats and the amount of embers that drop as you get later in the game become a trickle.

I just rerolled a third character because itā€™s easier to start over than to try and dig out a max level character that has a non-viable endgame build.

Having been a veteran of ARPGs, I find NRFTWā€™s system to be punitive and feels disrespectful to time and effort, as so much of what makes gear viable boils down to RNG.

1 Like
18

Friction can also stop this being a fun experience, and at least for me, thereā€™s enough friction in the build crafting system that Iā€™m not having a fun experience build crafting.

No one is calling for the friction to be eliminated entirely, just lessened somehow. For me, build crafting in NRftW is a slog; theory crafting is easy enough, weā€™ve even got tools for that, but the actual act of crafting a build, the nuts and bolts of it, is (at least for me) time consuming, tedious, and frustrating.

Sure, too much streamlining can be boring, but I still think some streamlining would be beneficial.

19

I honestly think the crafting system could use a complete overhaul.

First of all, I donā€™t think enchantments should have any RNG percentages. Instead, we should be able to extract enchantments from items and stack identical ones in our inventory. That would remove a lot of unnecessary grind and also make at least one of the embers (used for maxing stats) obsolete ā€” which I actually think would be a good thing.

Right now, Iā€™m saving so many armor pieces just because they have certain enchantments. Half the time, I donā€™t even know whether I already own a better version of that enchantment or not. To deal with this, Iā€™ve started creating separate chests for gloves, pants, helmets, armor, swords, rings, etc., just to organize all the pieces I might want for future builds.

And that leads to another issue: I canā€™t even build a cozy home because I need every bit of space for storage. My house is just covered in chests.

So in my opinion, either:

  • Make gear crafting and build creation much easier and more transparent,
    or

  • Give us a proper build simulator so we can test and plan builds before committing hours of farming.

For me, experimenting with different builds is way more fun than farming for countless hours only to end up with something thatā€™s either underwhelming or completely broken.

Which brings me to my second point: endgame builds are currently way too overpowered.

For example, durability on chest combined with damage resistance makes you nearly unkillable ā€” outside of fall damage, youā€™re basically a god with just two enchantments and one facet on plate or mesh armor.

Once you get rune ability spam or stamina cost recovery loops working, the game stops requiring much skill. During the first playthrough, you have to learn enemy patterns and play carefully. But in the endgame, that all becomes irrelevant because you just spam the same button combo over and over to clear everything.

At that point, the game starts to feel like just another Diablo-style power fantasy.

I would much rather see strong but interesting builds that allow you to defeat enemies in different styles ā€” not builds that remove the need for skill entirely. Yes, you can choose to avoid the strongest setups, but that means intentionally handicapping yourself instead of naturally engaging with balanced systems.

All that being said, I still love this game so much and am so excited to see where this is going with the 1.0 release and moon studios future plans with this game!

1 Like
21

lol, Iā€™ve made almost exactly the same complaints/requests, soā€¦

Yes.

Actually, Personal preference, Iā€™d prefer it if they made the system so that I could collect and level up the enchantments so that Iā€™m always working toward stronger enchantments for various builds instead of relying on random drops for random enchantments in random ranges for extraction requiring random resources so I can apply it to other randomized gear for a hopefully beneficial effect or suffer all the previously mentioned randomly generated consequences.

TLDR: I hate random loot. Profoundly.

Side note: I donā€™t think they realize just how much itā€™s fighting the rest of their game. Theyā€™ve got absolutely fantastic level design. And yet, due to the random loot, exploring it is done purely for fun, because the reward IS NEVER an actual unique weapon that incentivizes you to explore everything.

In fact, it does the opposite. Speedrun loot piƱatas. thatā€™s the optimal gameplay. I donā€™t like it.

2 Likes
23

I donā€™t mind a bit of randomness, but like you said, it all adds up.

And sorting through that noise is itself a frustration, trying to remember random ranges so I know whether +4% Armor Penetration is a good roll or a lousy one, having to make the choice between disenchanting the item, using the item, selling the item, or trashing the item.

I feel this. I mostly run the Crucible these days just for the fun of running the Crucible; the loot that drops often isnā€™t worth it, a bunch of junk Iā€™ll never use, or stuff Iā€™ll throw in my vault and forget about.

Build crafting is supposed to be the end game, but I find the whole process so tedious, frustrating, and overwhelming that I rarely touch that part of the game. Iā€™m running Crucible and Pestilence for the fun of it (which isnā€™t a bad thing) instead of for the ā€œgoalā€ portion.

Some randomness can be fun, but too much can be a burden. Reducing the RNG across the board, even a little bit, could make the build crafting much more enjoyable.

1 Like