Weapons with multiple attacks per single button press are bad. It feels wrong and reduces player agency. Want to just break a barrel? Better get comfortable and grab a snack before your character stops swinging around after one single press. Want to combo an enemy? Sure I know you just pressed three times but your character is now in a long term committed relationship with waggle and it will take several weeks to reach the end of this honeymoon. Please devs, I know you’re busy adding more ramparts and battle stations to Sacrament, but can you just not do that? Keep one attack animation per single button press? Pretty please? It’s most obvious on the wands and staffs.
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…just don’t use them? lmao
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@David_Constante I know the perfect weapon for you.. try jackknife!
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Just don’t make bad movesets? roflmao
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It doesn’t solve the problem of annoying movesets when you just use different weapons. In fact it promotes the illusion that the players have no complaints about them.
I’d love to have a discussion about movesets but your comments are veering on trolling right about the vibrator jokes. The point is that I’m not looking for a different weapon. I’m asking for better movesets that don’t require juggling multiple automatic attacks. It leaves you vulnerable when multiple enemies are on screen and you can’t stop swinging. It’s annoying in 3rd person when you’ve played 30 hours of the same bothersome animations. Everything else about the weapons I’m using is great, that’s why I don’t change. I wanted to play this build because I like it. But it’s just bad design.
You can animation cancel easier with a roll than a dash atleast for me.
So if your build has bad design then change to another pole to dance around?
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It’s not the existence of double attacks that causes this problem; double attacks and slow attacks are pretty much the same thing.
The problem stems from how and when they’re used, and from the player’s expectations.
For example, wands are full of double attacks. At first glance, the mouvement of a wand seems like that of a light and fast weapon, but because of the double attacks, they’re actually often as slow as a heavy greatsword.
It might seem like a good idea for devs to balance wands and have slow attacks to balance the weapon’s strong runes, but this runs into two problems.
The first problem is that it doesn’t make sense for wands to be so slow, primarily from an “Affordance” standpoint, and therefore the player can’t use the weapon intuitively.
The second problem is more technical and affects many of the game’s weapons, which players intuitively consider to be weapons with a bad movement set:
The variation in attack timing in the movement set, in particular: /Wind-up/ Active Frames /Wind-down/
Often in this game there are attacks that go outside the weapon pattern
for example the Paddle has some slots that have a balanced Wind-up/Active Frames/Wind-down: /—/—/—/
But the running attack completely falls outside of this pattern and has a gigantic Wind-up: /------/–/-/
Summer’s Sting has a running attack which has the same problem but instead it is the Wind-down that is gigantic: /-/-/-------/
These running attacks are almost unusable and break the feel of the weapon.
The first (/------/–/-/) because any enemy can hit during the animation before they are hit and staggered and if the enemy is big he can easily interrupt you.
The second because any enemy can hit after the animation even if they are hit before and tagged the tagging ends and while you are still there during the Wind-down animation you get hit, This makes this attack usable only in specific situations such as giving the enemy the last blow, which is counter intuitive since it is a running attack.
With wands the problem is similar, just a little less obvious, all the attacks have variable durations in the middle of the attack chain, and this is the main reason why they have a “shitty moveset”. It is very difficult and not very intuitive to understand your own attack windows, which makes you more focused on yourself than on the enemies and ruins the immersion.
This doesn’t mean they’re weak. It’s okay if there are some weird weapons. But it doesn’t matter if they’re strong if they’re not fun to use.
I did a run where I only used wands and required more practice with the other weapons with no real benefit. the only wand that is an exception is the croked key, and wands with double attacks are worse than those without.
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“double attacks and slow attacks are pretty much the same thing. The problem stems from how and when they’re used, and from the player’s expectations.”
The same if you think two attacks add up in damage to one big slow attack, but because of the slow wind up you can end up missing or getting hit before it. Giving wands and other weapons two forced attacks is basically nonsensical to me. What is the justification? I see none. It’s forced differentiation. “If you want to use this weapon you have to attack twice”.
Wands could have the exact same moves, just that you need one press per attack. Want to attack twice? Press twice. Imagine!
"With wands the problem is similar, just a little less obvious, all the attacks have variable durations in the middle of the attack chain, and this is the main reason why they have a “shitty moveset”. "
Personally I don’t find the off timings to be that bad. But there are some that have extra long finish chained attacks for no reason. My criteria for a bad moveset, besides an obvious one where it just doesn’t work, is that it takes away player agency. If I want to hit 4 times I have to press 4 times. I press twice and my character stays attacking and going and going. Not all weapons or wands, but some do. It makes sense if it’s like with fast weapons that do multi-hit animations that may have 3 short attacks but act as 1. But these are weapons that have attacks that last like a normal single hit, but multiple times.
“I did a run where I only used wands and required more practice with the other weapons with no real benefit.”
There are some really good skills that work only with wands, and since you can now also add staves skills to them they are very versatile. I started with All is Known for ice skills, but the forced multiple attacks got grating. Changed to Fused Coronet for fire, and the skills are great and the moveset is also good. Except when it decides to do multiple forced attacks at the end of the string. Most of the time the enemy I’m attacking is already dead but the animations keep going.
I think I’m asking for something really simple. I get that most people work around it and just use another weapon if they don’t like it. But it shouldn’t be that way.
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Many movesets have not been thought out well or have not been tested enough, some double attacks are really nice to use like the last attack of the Cleric’s Mace, unfortunately a double attacks cannot be easily changed into two separate attacks because of the stamina cost and the damage, is different. To change a double attack into two single attacks you need to change the speed of the animations if not change the animations completely, to bring the weapon into a balanced state.
I agree
Correct, the devs have always expressed that it is not in their intention to have systems stronger than others, I think the same applies to weapons, but unfortunately there are still many weapons that suck especially if compared with others
Just because something annoys you does not equate to bad design.
I think you picked a wrong game my friend. It is not a next assassins creed inspired trash. The game intentionally reduces player agency during attacks, it’s called animation commitment based combat. The solution is to know your weapon and its attack patterns and learn how to use it correctly. I would also advise you to learn to control your panic clicking, because it will make you a lot of problems in this type of games, almost as much as panic rolling.
I don’t like very slow attacks of 2 handed weapons (it’s a lie actually)! Oh, i have an idea, how about we both pick some other weapons?
Story time! Yesterday i was at a supermarket doing some shopping. When i was passing by a kids toys section i overheard a woman and her 7yo having a conversation like this:
[KID]: I want this robot!
[WOMAN]: Didn’t you just say you don’t like the color?
[KID]: Yeah, I want it in green.
[WOMAN]: It only comes in blue. Let’s look at some other robots.
[KID]: NOOOOOO! I want THIS robot! But it has to be green! FIX IT!!
Fast-forward to today, and i read a conversation on a game forum that gave me instant déjà vu. Except this time it is a grown man arguing “BUT I WANT THIS WEAPON!!! I just don’t like how it swings!”.
Curtain!
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Some Wands has a special attack on roll attack as it doesn’t work on dash attack so I wouldn’t recommend going with a light build on some specific Wands.
If you want a faster run attack use attack speed enchant and willow cap ring.
Yeah Summer Stings moveset probably have nothing with its original rune Wallbreaker to do.
I bet that “Wallbreaker” haven’t been tested enough, probably because of Its under whelming icon and name? If you only knew how op the Rune actually is.
Now I get what you mean! You want a wand that attacks like how you shoot arrows from your bow!
So get a Jackknife with the attack speed enchant, willow cap ring and a Bow!
No offense! And to my defense Jackknife looks like a wand! It even have a similar moveset to some Wands attacks where it makes a thrust 
but I can’t guarantee that the wand will penetrate the enemies armor however I can guarantee that with the Jackknife!
I made no such a thing as a “(({}))” joke.. blame your mind not me 
When people say forced attack they’re criticizing the wrong thing.
The attacks and attack sequences themselves are fine.
What’s really the issue is the fact that the game functions off animation commits, so animations cannot be dodged out of or interrupted by movement.
This causes many weapon kits with long animation locks to be suboptimal compared to weapons which have shorter animation lock and animation wind up periods.
The animation lock is compounded by the fact the poise system in this game is horrid, because player baseline poise is that of wet toilet paper, most enemy hits outside something like the sirens or gloam zerglings WILL stagger/interrupt/stun immediately.
The idea of poise itself is not bad, get hit enough for being careless and get punished for it. But the issue is that often 1-2 hits is all it takes to become a ragdolled pinball because the player baseline poise is really, really low.
Even with max poise flask (20 poise), poise rune utility buff (another 20), at 40 poise the Remnant knights and any bruiser mob is immediately staggering with one hit on cloth/medium armor.
Even with mesh/heavy the difference is that it might take an extra hit to be staggered, and that’s it.
The only true sense of tangible poise gain is when actively blocking with a shield.
When you have an animation lock system with a system of low baseline poise and long animations and wind ups (often without enemy tracking on several rune attacks, like the kick runes), the long animation locks feel like an absolute liability.
So instead what happens is you see people either mainly running 1H setups with quicker weapons that have shorter animation locks, or they play a specific 2H build heavily tailored toward stunlocking enemies with plague or frost debuffs to reduce the instances of getting constantly interrupted by enemy attacks or frequently whiffing enemies that spam dashes.
I used the weapon and also the rune (the rune is definitely strong and can be put on any two-handed weapon).
As I said, it’s not a question of how strong they are, we’re talking about the moveset and whether it’s nice to use or not, or if it has problems.
And I used the speed ring and it helps a lot, I can even say that with the speed ring Summer Stings and if it had a charged attack it would be one of my favorite weapons, but a weapon shouldn’t be fun only when you build around it but also when you use it normally.
Summer Stings runng attack and 3rd attack /Wind-up/ Active Frames /Wind-down/ looks like this: (/------/–/-/) any enemy can hit you after the animation, even if they are hit before and staggering them the stagger ends and while you are still there during the Wind-down animation and you get hit.
Basically if you don’t kill them with the 3rd attack you can’t use it, so you have to do:
1-2-walk-1-2 (or 1-2-Samiana Rune-1-2 ) instead of 1-2-3-1-2-3
(clearly a design problem)
Running attack same thing: if you don’t’ kill them with it you can’t use it 90% of the times, and this is also true for when you have attack speed only that instead of being 90% it’s 70%-60%?
However, it is not acceptable since well-made weapons can do it 100%, use the Claymore, and you don’t have this problem, and it’s a shame, because I would really like the moovest of this weapon if it weren’t for this flaw, (and the flaw that it doesn’t have charged attacks).
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Arguing in favor of the status quo and against those seeking to improve things seems like such a waste of time I don’t know why you think it’s worth yours. It’s an early access game and the devs are begging for feedback and keep making changes. The last two updates have been heavily driven by complaints. I have some about the way weapons work.
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I can get around the idea that the moveset problem is compounded by have low poise in most builds. But even if I could dodge cancel out of an attack that has multiple swings, now I’d be pissed that I have to dodge cancel it every time. It just shouldn’t be like that, period. There’s no positive logical reason for it. And I agree that if you have to use heavy weapons they should give you enough poise to tank attacks while the animation finally delivers an attack.
Most of these issues are honestly coming from the fact this is the first time the developers are making their first game of this kind. While at the same time reinventing the genre. Which is is exactly why they need to hear what problems people are having from all angles of the issue. My angle here was that too many times weapons lock multiple attacks under single button presses. Another angle is low poise. Neither supersedes each other in relevance.
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Oh logical reason there is.. but I’m not here to talk about logic.
If you want to spam 1 attack with a wand use any dart rune like fire dart use a shield and hold block while you use fire dart rune.. kinda looks like the character shoots a gun and it skips some unnecessary animations 
I get that you dont like bows it’s too old fashioned for ya..
Remember to spam the fire dart rune while blocking.
You can experiment and see the difference between a light, medium and a great shield.. I’ve only tested with light and great.
Yes i know you dont want to animation cancel or atleast that’s what it feels like when reading your comments?