You can do 2 without requireing the player to use weapons he does not like.
Sure, 1 does what you say. But player do this without such an encouragement. You could even add optional quests for using the weapons giving them some extra ressources, saving some time. There are so many other ways to achieve the same without forcing players using stuff they do not like.
Yes, i dom not see a point on the classes. The current system without classes is a mjor reason why the game is so fun. You can change your playstyle easily all the time or going hybrid.
As somebody already said, if the point is to remove the random part, well just remove the random part. Classes only add annoyance and lmiitations with no benefit at all.
The advantages can easily be had without a trade-off: Some part of class XP could go towards a common pool from which one can buy off-class perks.
If this ‘generic’ XP accrues more slowly than experience inside of the native class, players are still encouraged to experiment without being forced into an undesired playstyle.
Completely removing classes and offering a free, entirely horizontal ‘skill tree’ feels like it would not be a solution. There is (subjective) value in having to progress towards a goal, which can be preserved.
On the other hand, I fail to understand how perks being in other classes forces players to play as those. This would only be the case if certain classes have mandatory (or grossly overpowered) perks.
(Games like FFXIV historically required levelling off-classes to unlock central abilities of one’s role. This was unpopular and removed. The current class system reminds me of Dragon’s Dogma, where perks aren’t required and a full jack-of-all-trades class exists.)
Yes, that is what I am hoping for, same as with runes.[1] In fact, I was assuming they will end up balanced, and tried to argue as follows:
Some perks might be alternative solutions to the same problem. If you have are looking for a solution to a particular buildcrafting problem, but want to avoid playing a particular weapon class, there’s probably another class that you can play instead.[2]
I’m aware, no worries. Tictacs also inspired DD. I mentioned DD due to it having one possible implementation of the ‘generic XP’ idea.
A bit worried about massive player-power spiking since Thomas keeps saying T4 to T6 runes are insane, but I remain optimistic. ↩︎
You’re completely correct, of course, that there might still be a case where I’m interested in trying that one particular perk; and my argument is ignoring perks unique to a class, which will surely exist. ↩︎
The current system with attributes blocks you from using two things effectively at the same time. You can reskill anytime and do one or the other.
That is a balancing decision to prevent people from having access to to certain weapons and skills at the same time. That has NOTHING to do with problem in question.
In the new system you need to play with a weapon you don’t want to just to unlock a skill. That and only that is the point of my critique.
The fact that the new system removes the barrier to use different “class” skills together is irrelevant and part of a balancing decision i was not addressing. If you handle balancing differently, fine.
The point is the unecessary requirement to play something unfun to unlock skills. So far no one, including you provided a good reason. Not one that is not already or can easily be provided without it.
It is not needed, it does not add anything positive at all and even far fetch claims of a postive advantage mentioned can easily be provided without that downside by something else, as people even already acknowledge.
I quite like what they are doing with the class system at the moment. I think it will have a lot of benefits. The main benefits that I see are:
No more attribute requirements
No more respec
A goal to achieve with each weapon and a reason to play each weapon.
However, I do agree with this point
They did state that they do not want to have a passive point system because they do not want you to have to take passives that you don’t want, to get the passives that you do. By having to play weapons that you might not want to play (for me bows) to unlock passives that you might want. It kind of effectively does the same thing and will probably feel not to great if there is a passive locked behind a weapon that you don’t want to play.
It is possible, though, that by having to try the weapon you may find that you like. This may also inadvertently mean that you are going to need way more gems or embers to ensure that you have viable weapons along the journey when you want to swap.How quickly you are able to level a weapon to get the passives or unlocks will play a large roll in determining how frustrating it may be to play with a weapon you don’t really want to.
I think I am still going to prefer what they are doing with the class system and I am looking forward to it. I just really hope they get this system in the game before 1.0 so it can be tested.
Classes donsent add to anything in NRFTW. The stats points distribution is what make the game great. You can use and do whatever you wnat with your character and to start a new one is simple.
Classes not just constrain, but also make more tedious to evolve.
Also, classes broke something that for me is essential in any game that have good playability: you can play using just the basics (atack, defense and roll) or by using every mecanic that game offers you.
With classes, this will go away, because to balance things you will need to make habilities, enemies and other stuff in a way that just atack and roll will not be a option anymore. The game will lose the simplicity that make it so great.
And, with all that, we have another problem, that is of the weapons, as you said. I want to be able to use all weapons that just leveling strength allow me to do, I dont wanna have to “train” in a specific class just to see if I will like something that before was simple as equip, atack, didint like, unequip.
Anyway, please take more thought on that class thing. I think you will make the game more tedious and lose more than gain with that.
Which skill? You are complaining that you are forced to use a weapon you don’t like to get a skill you do want. Which weapon and which skill?
Oh, you have no idea what skills are going to be in the game, and what weapons they will be associated with. So you are deliberately imagining the worst outcome just to complain.
I’m imagining that there will be similar skills across all the classes, with a few more specialized ones. If you want a gap closer, for example, you will have access to them. There’s not only one class with a gap closer. Every class has one.
We cannot know if it will be as bad as you want to say it is until it actually comes out for the public to use.
IF you are correct, I have no counter point. I don’t think you are correct, though. I think there will be many options for fun things to play, even if they are not your favorite thing to play, just to unlock traits/runes. There might be one cool trait on a weapon you don’t enjoy, but there will probably be something equivalent on a weapon you don’t hate so much.
Unless you hate everything just for the sake of being hateful. Then no one can help you.
You will be able to equip, try and change weapons freely. Even more so in the new class system than in the skill point system. There will not be a required investment to use a weapon well.
In the current system, you put points in strength and can use any strength weapon, but cannot use any other stat’s weapons well. You can try them, but they have less damage.
In the new class system, you will be able to use any weapon at any time just to try them. You don’t have to level up a class to see if you want to use the weapon. You only get new perks/traits if you use the class enough to get skill points, but you are not punished by making all wands not work anymore, for example.
If you ‘train’ in a certain class you will get access to new rune options or abilities, but if you do not train in a given class you are still able to use any weapon you want. The act of making a build will be different, but trying things out will be easier and more flexible.
How is the new system better by this logic? You can literally switch classes with a single click and swap any ability you’ve unlocked across all classes just as easily. Is that what you call commitment now?
My two cents, I am really looking forward to it. I got the game a few weeks ago, as a “souls like" recommendation, since I played a lot of those. When I saw that “classes" were in the pipeline, I said “oh no". So I ended up in the forum looking for more info.
And I’m actually more hyped now. Part of the problem is probably the name “classes”. They could’ve called it “proficiencies”, and we would have avoided some confusion. With "classes” I heard D&D, and I really was not looking forward to having to drop my character running a halberd and a staff. Turns out their “traits” will make it cleaner to do such a thing, no need to worry about a str/dex and then int split. Selecting the relevant traits seems to me much more interesting for buildcrafting, because it’s not just some linear optimization problem I can solve in an excel sheet.
Coming from the Souls world, I will say it wasn’t my favourite part of it. The methodical and weighty approach to combat (which isn’t the same as “difficult", looking at you Nioh) is what made Souls great, and NRFTW does it very well too. If I had to pick the other main point of Souls for me, it is that even the starting sword is a viable weapon in endgame if you invest in it. Which NRFTW does too.
So as long as they don’t do the Diablo thing of making combat a numbers-go-up spamfest, and forcing you to change equipment every 5 minutes and spend 10 looking at stats, they’ll keep the core value of the game for me. If classes actually make it easier to mix and match, even better.
If you read more into the ‘class’ system, you might be happy to find that the name is just poorly chosen. You’re not going to lock yourself into one class, but level all of them on one character by using different weapons and playstyles.
In fact, with attributes being removed, you’ll have more effective combinations of gear on every character. Every character will be able to use everything, and there will be no more need to respec or to make new characters to try things.
The class system will be more diverse rather than less.
(Some restrictions were discussed by the devs, such as limiting certain classes to certain armour weights, which would be a major limit compared to the current system; but I’d be surprised if this idea made it through. The devs see the class system as ‘heart surgery’, or a major, risky change they’re going to be doing their absolute best to get right, so I’d let them come up with a prototype and give feedback once a version is being playtested rather than complaining without having all the information.)