Ring of Determination: End Game Exploit or Well Deserved Vacation?

For those that haven’t reached end game and/or bothered with the Crucible:

So long as you prioritize damage, lifesteal and healing.. you never have to worry about “focus gain” again.

Due to seemingly all the end game guides using the ring to speed run the crucible, the ring has become quite controversial.

Whether it’s the Subzero build like mine, the fiery “apocalypse” or plagues “splatter”.

All of those mage builds focus on exploiting the rings power.
*Seeking the ease of destruction against anything that breaths in opposition to your presence.

I’d imagine the devs left it in to let players test mechanics and player preference at end game.

In truth, prior to getting the ring. I could still steamroll the Crucible with the subzero build.

The difference is in how much time and resources you have to “waste” to get the same effect.

IE: Without the ring, I’m constantly worried about managing Focus.

Granted, not having the ring on a frost build isn’t a big deal because we can still freeze and shatter for good focus gain.

However, players that want to be a pure a mage/wizard are still limited by requiring us to "get physical’ in the first place.

Prior to the ring, we had craftable potions we could drink that gave us Focus (and made fishing somewhat worth the hassle).

That same potion is now “nerfed” to only give a “focus gain %” bonus. Which means you’re still gonna need to get your focus manually.

If the potions original effect were still in the game, the ring would lose a great deal of it’s luster. Especially considering how hard it is to get (RNG from the “final” boss in the game via the Crucible).

*It took me well over 20 successful runs to finally get it to drop.

In fact, I’d argue it is the only legendary worth grinding the Crucible for.
*Everything else seems wildly inferior to the end game “custom plague” gear required to beat it in the first place [more on that later].

I’d wager the devs nerfed the potion and hid the ring as an “end game” item due to the desire to make the combat more “souls-like” for the majority of the storied experience.

IE: Parry, dodge or die.

When it comes to Fromsoft games, I’m more of a fan of Elden Ring’s approach where you’re not absolutely forced into melee with every class/build.

*Your journey as a mage apprentice might start out rough but you’ll be moving mountains in no time!

On one hand you could say “we just need more creative encounters and enemy mechanics for players to engage with”.

IE: Paper > rock > scissors (elemental or attribute system)

Or maybe think that one of the biggest hurdles to creating more interesting encounters, is the stat system..

  1. Leveling STR does not affect your carry weight or make all physical weapons hit harder.
  2. Leveling DEX does not affect your attack/move speed or ability to use ranged weapons (bows).
  3. Heals are unaffected by Faith and INT does not increase spell damage.

For me it’s a combination of those and the fact that loot itself just isn’t unique or rewarding enough to justify long, drawn out and skill based encounters.

Whether it’s the disdain of getting small potions and “blue” gear.. or the fact that legenaries seem to require more work to make functional builds around.

Even the T4 C10 outbreaks offer “trinkets” compared to how much work they can be to finish (especially with a non-plague, no determination, build).

Even with my ability to steamroll the crucible, I have little desire to do so outside of testing new “broken” builds on it.

At it’s core, I don’t think the ring is the problem.. it’s the foundation of the combat and reward loops.

All that said, these are problems the devs are currently looking into..



So what do you think..

At the end of the day, is the Ring of Determination an end game exploit or a well deserved vacation from the unrewarding grind?

If the latter, what do you think they should do about it?

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Generally concepts of “builds” revolve around trivializing the game. In that context it’s just a tool for the job.

Normally I’d delete it from the game. Along with many other things. Anything that allows a player to ignore learning/dealing with enemies and their attack patterns would be on a chopping block for me.

For the time being I’m just waiting for tiers/custom realms.

Interesting.. I’ve always seen “builds” as thematic ways to streamline the enjoyment of the game using a particular style of play.

Less about trivialization and more about fun things to experience.

IE: This time I’m gonna play as a barbarian and smash’em up!

Though, when one type of gameplay/build is clearly more fun than others (like a mage with the RoD, it can mean that’s all people wanna play, because it “just works”).

That said, if they did remove the ring, what kind of changes to the loot or reward structure/loop would you hope/expect?.. and if nothing else, should they restore the ability to craft the focus potions’ original effect (creating a trade off rather than a streamlined effect)?

Any game that features combinable pieces of equipment with a variety of bonuses inherently involves builds. Putting two synergistic items together is the act of building a playstyle and necessarily involves, whether consciously or not, prioritizing one one combat style over another. The only way for a game to avoid builds is to also avoid the possibility of combining multiple pieces of equipment with linked effects. This is not a trivialization, it is the natural outcome of a mechanic that has accompanied video games (especially those with RPG elements) since their inception.

And like any mechanic, it can be more or less deep, more or less trivial, but it is not inherently trivial itself. That’s how I see it

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Yea, I know. Also my dislike for “builds” is the reason I value games like Sekiro or Sifu so high.

and after a month someone discovered YouTube…
however ring of determination is not tied to caster builds, there are melee builds just as fast if not faster that use it and certainly less boring.
in the end game if your build is made with logic the damage output is so high that you oneshot everything..in the crucible then with all the buffs that are there talking about exploits is ridiculous, if someone has difficulty completing it is only because he is an inexperienced player

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then looking at the first photo I can deduce that you have not fully understood how it works…
the true potential of the ring occurs when you limit life to 40% through the plague affixes of the objects, to this you add the reduced % of focus at low life.
all this brings the cost of the runes that require focus close to 0

Indeed, that photo was taken right after getting the ring.
*It’s Larry Puss’ Subzero build which has a ton of focus gen because he didn’t have the ring either.

Much like the fire nation, everything changed afterwards.

my take is that players should be rewarded for having strong gear by demolishing the game.

i take offense to games where “demolishing” the game is a requirement. (looks at poe/le). the issue i have is the more difficult content that a game has, the less build variety you get. the bigger gap between weak players vs optimized ones, can feel like a punishment for players who try doing their own thing.

if the devs dont want players to demolish their game. find out whats causing it and rework/nerf appropriately.

i feel the amount of powercreep in games like poe, frankly disgusting.

I would really like to see where an “average player” gets in poe without following a guide to make a build.. in many cases copying it without understanding it doesn’t even lead to the same result.
poe is a 10 year old game that is still played, in terms of mechanics and depth of build nrfdw is a joke in comparison

They made a joke out of their own game with one item and are quietly ignoring it.

At this point in the game’s life cycle, which is basically a glorified beta test, I wouldn’t fret.

But if they decide to have this kind of garbage in their 1.0, I won’t investing another minute in the game. At that point, I’d rather go and play Demon Souls, yeah a 15 year old game that respects the player is better than a game that posed as a Souls like and sold out to ARPG trash to make ends meet.

I have a feeling Moon is being dishonest with their Souls player base, and I’m not about to get fleeced by them.

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Honestly, you could just as easily say it’s all the lifesteal and heal-buff stacking that’s the problem, rather than the ring.

Without the massive amount of healing from damage you can get from gear and gems, the ring would just kill you (or keep you low enough to get one shot by a random mob just off screen).


So lets say when 1.0 launches they put a “no lifesteal/healing” debuff on the ring or simply remove it out right and also massively tone down healing.

At that point, would it really increase the lifespan of the game.. or drive people away because it’s too punishing (like what happened when “The Reach” initially launched).

In some respect, due to the backlash and mass review flagging. I think the devs are now a bit shy about going too hardcore into being a souls-like.


However, with the creation of “realms” I think there’s another, more interesting solution entirely.

Look at Hades’ Mirror of Night and Pact of Punishment.
*Both allow players to critique the rules of each run.

Now take it a step further and look at the "option for banning items’ from Super Smash Bros and the “world options” in Palworld.

Simply take inspiration from those games or countless others to expand the feature set of realms.

It would go a long way to not only give people their desired challenge.. but also create a massive amount of replay-ability.

Lets say you’re only here to kill things and want a true hardcore challenge..

You could:

  1. Turn off housing “build” timers.
  2. Change crafting requirements from materials to currency.
  3. Decrease the “parry” window.
  4. Ban specific items from loot tables.
    ect, ect.

Granted, they’ve already said “custom realms are on the way”.. so maybe they’ve already thought of these things?


The only thing they’d need to do at that point, is make it painfully obvious (at a glance) whether or not someone posting a speed run or showcasing a build has “reduced the heat” (Pact of Punishment lingo for making the game easier so they can brag by misleading viewers).

Perhaps a “version code” that’s visible at the top or bottom of the screen (with a transparent background)?

Depending on how detailed this feature set is.. viewers could copy/paste the code into their own game’s world settings.

This is something I’m sure Vtubers and Streamers would enjoy, as they use it to challenge and interact with their communities.

why post a completely old review score? at least add a disclaimer, that it was taken in April, right after breach release.

here is the current one:

That highlighted the backlash I was referencing in the post.
*Posting an “updated” one after many of the “hardcore” settings were changed to be less so, wouldn’t really make sense.

i just wanted to prevent people thinking its a current one and the whole review score discussion popping up again :wink:

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lol, ah ya.. I don’t blame ya there.
*A lot of people online took advantage of that score to try and milk it for views and that sweet sweet ad-revenue.

This is an incorrect assertion.

Lifesteal and healing were both present in the game before the Breach update and while there were very strong builds made around lifesteal, they were never quite as broken as they are today with the addition of RoD. Furthermore, these are parameters that can be easily adjusted on the development side with the click of a button.

What gives longevity to the lifespan of a game like NRFTW is systems that players can invest in learning and using to achieve their goals. It is the games job to provide different tiers of achievements that can be reached depending on your skill, game knowledge and the amount of time invested. Making the game easy was a hotfix to avoid financial calamity, and I don’t fault Moon for doing that. I ran a small business for over a decade and I know very well what it means to be responsible for paychecks and people’s livelihood.

What will give this game a longer lifespan is a player base that will stick around to overcome the learning curve, invest in the systems that are implemented and get a sense of achievement for it. Killing a large mob in a high level area should ALWAYS be hard, just as well as killing a trash mob should be easy. Both of these are rewarding in different ways. The former shows you have improved skills and the latter shows you’ve earned status, both leading to a dopamine hit. And let’s face it, we’re all dopamine junkies, so we will come back for more.

The players that are happy now because they can prance through the entire game by button mashing will leave this game faster than they left a bad review. And perhaps that doesn’t matter to Moon, because they’ve sold their $40 product and got a good review in return. Can you really fault them for it? No, just don’t give me the speech about how you love your product and aim to create a masterpiece on Twitter and Discord. You are looking to make sale just like any big dev/publisher. That’s what I am becoming increasing irked by when I see Thomas tweet and b.s. the audience.

If they had actual financial foresight, they would know that the game has the potential to become an MMO-Lite with future expansion and updates that a dedicated player base would happily pay for and keep them financially afloat. But do they have that level of integrity within their studio? At this point, looking at the amount of caving they’ve done which is borderline capitulation, I’d be skeptical. This is not how you create art, which what Thomas purporting to do.

The problem with game is threefold:

  • It lacks clear identity.
  • It doesn’t have financial security.
  • It is too ambitious for it’s own good.

Mark my words, there will bad reviews because “realms are too complicated” and you know why? Because Moon has decided that they need the ARPG trashmobs to be their consumers.

I think there should be chase items. This ring could be the “headhunter” of NRFTW. Stupid crazy strong, build defining … but you won’t be guaranteed to get it. It’ll be an OMG moment people clip when it drops.

So I hope they don’t balance chase items, they’re meant to be broken. The drop rate/ difficulty of acquiring it is what should be balanced.

It’s very cool what Moon has created here and the freedom we as users and gamers have been given to get creative and use everything that is in the game.
And hey, creating rune spamming builds, feel good playing these builds and letting everyone know that they should be considered OP and broken and spending one’s time calling on devs to flatten and nerf them, well, why not, that the former is cool, the latter is starting to become a bit stale by now.
I find it very cool what we have, the freedom offered and the only thing I am little sad about is that we can’t sneak into the unintended locations anymore since those were nerfed, but that’s now taking it offtopic. So btt, it is a singleplayer game and we have freedom with all the items, including the ring of determination. I’ll enjoy that as long as possible. Finally a game which allows that. Thanks a heap Moon, plz keep going.

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there are still people who say that the game is difficult and who complain about everything
-I can’t find materials
-I can’t find gems
-I can’t find legendaries
-the bosses are too difficult
-there is nothing in the chests…
I’ve heard a lot of bullshit in a year.
today the ring is one of the few objects in the game if not the only one on which you can build a build.. is it easy to find? for me it was easy, for others the problem is still understanding how to not fall off a cliff..
honestly the game was much more fun before the breach where you weren’t tied to a single object to have the “build op” and you had to look for weapons with the right affixes and not use the slot machine to then make them sublime..it wasn’t perfect but it was definitely a good starting point to work on.
instead, 1 year of testing was thrown down the toilet to redo everything with things that practically convinced no one because for some, run spam was a mechanic that should be eliminated… great result, I’d say!