Sorry if this sounds weird..
Your mindset is something ive heard so many times in games mostly mmo’s tho, i cant reconcile with it because i dont seek that type of progression.
I dont care if the the game gets harder because that is how i think it should be.
I dont need to feel that im progressing in the right direction because there is no right or wrong, we just overcome.
Yes but given the opportunity the player in the context of a difficult game always chooses the most efficient option rather than the fun one.
It’s true that many players would be able to try new things even at the cost of having fewer statistics, but I don’t think it’s appropriate to put players in a situation where they have to make a choice like this, an option like this punishes less skilled (or scared) players.
There is no need to reward commitment to a build, players who want to stay with the same build are free to do so and are already at an advantage over players who want to do different things since they don’t have to think about skill points, they can master their build from a technical and execution point of view.
I understand adding complexity as the game progresses, but this system isn’t so complicated that there’s a need to do something like this.
(And just because this is a common thing doesn’t mean this game has to do the same)
I would prefer to have the freedom to have an interested build from the beginning of the game.
I find that getting stronger is not particularly interesting, when I make a new build it is not to get stronger but to change my playstyle, I think more games could avoid implementing “false progression” and come out better or unchanged.
I also talk about it here in more detail: The upcoming Class system is a bad idea - #6 by Lombix_4 .
I find it annoying/problematic when a game becomes simpler from a technical point of view just because you did your build well, I want to change my play style with the builds, I don’t want to make the game simpler.
Just don’t make the enemies stronger xD (from a statistical point of view) the enemies’ moveset becoming more complex is all that’s needed.
Just balance the game correctly, idev decides both the player’s and the enemies’ stats.
Personally, I feel that if the only significant difference between level 6 and level 60 is just the extra zero . . . Why bother even keeping levels in the game? Just cut exp and levels entirely and pivot completely to just traits and trait points.
Yes, I understand that enemies get stronger and so do you, but if there’s a good balance of stronger enemies to match your stronger character why not just have no leveling at all? You can have slightly stronger enemies as a means of just testing the limits of your build, without having the same enemy just with 60% more hp.
Numeric danger levels can be eschewed in favor of replacing basic enemies with enemies that have their own builds or more complex move sets as a means of progression. Then there can be a low/medium/high/extreme sort of danger level progression, with each tier offering tougher enemies to match a more refined build. Then your base stats never need to scale, since you will scale them yourself with the traits you purchase.
This would theoretically appeal to everyone, except those who only want to see ‘number go up.’ (Those players still have POE) You have early game enemies that are weak, later enemies that can be much tougher, and a sense of progression as your own character benefits from the traits you pick. It would rely completely on the traits system though, which is a huge shift from the standard approach to character strength in games.
This is a classic case of players optimizing the fun out of their own gameplay. I do not know the solution.
I disagree with this, to an extent. On one hand, I like the freedom to make an interesting build early on and to try different combinations as I play. On the other hand, if I make a good build too early and there is no reward for committing to it . . . then I feel like I’ve beaten the game before I even finish it. This is not a fun feeling. I want to be rewarded. That’s the point of a game.
I agree with this completely. ‘Getting stronger’ usually means making a number bigger, or trivializing things that should be challenging. I want to overcome the challenge with my own skill, not with a bigger number.
I also love when a new build feels different, and lets me explore those same challenges in a different way.
Yes, but also this is very hard. Balancing a game correctly is never as simple as it appears from the players’ perspectives. There is a lot more that goes into balance and game design that what you see from the outside.
Still, I am totally in favor of not having stats go up as you go. As I said earlier, it would be just fine having no levels at all. Just focus on balancing move sets and traits.
This entire discussion is very difficult to reconcile, since everyone is likely imagining a different potential class/trait system. The cognitive dissonance means we may never fully understand each other’s arguments, and we may be trying to bridge an impossible gap.
Once the class system is actually released, I bet we will understand each other better. We might even be better able to articulate our side(s) of the debate with concrete examples. Alternatively, the class system might invalidate the vast majority of this discussion with something we didn’t know that we didn’t know. We just have to wait and see.
Hmm… This implies that the runes system is being overhauled/merged with the traits system somehow. Maybe leveling a class lets you unlock runes and swap them on your chosen weapon? I think this would be a massive improvement.
It would also make the thought of having 20+ traits on a class make a lot more sense.
the solution is not to put the player in the position of choosing between something strong and something fun, both options must be equally fun/strong, so in this case you don’t need to introduce trait levels.
Making a fun build and beating the game are two different things. There are other things to do in the game, The build is not the goal to be achieved, it is the means with which you can achieve the other objectives.
You play the game because the gameplay is fun, not to increase your build’s stats.
The gameplay reward in this case is not necessary.
The game experience is the reason you play the game, not the rewards.
Rewards are important for setting goals but they must be in the right places, in the right quantities and must not cause problems with other aspects of the game.
I know, I never said it was simple, but it is necessary.
I also want to point out that the devs made their job more difficult than it should have been.
The game’s math is more complicated than it needs to be. They copied this aspect of RPGs without realizing that it’s actually a problem rather than a feature.
Well they also waste insane amount of development time to scale properly 3 difficulty sliders that Thomas side will never come.
The worst difficulty option in all of gaming btw, getting less loot as higher you set the difficulty. Peak Game design
You get more loot at the highest difficulty, because of the higher amount of enemies. Furthermore, the hard difficulty should be for the people who enjoy a challenge and not give bonuses, because this indirectly “forces” you to play it if you don’t want to be at a disadvantage. A perfect example of the illusion of choice.
Also, what does this have to do with the class system? Can we please keep this discussion on topic.
Does this mean i will be able to use Throw runes on Claymores again like the old days? 
-Edit: oops i misread You’ll now have access to the runes instead of “now not have access”
No it does not lol. I love you you guys fall for that. Its like you say look there is double the amount of enemies so you get double loot.. yeah bro because i also take double as long.
No it literally SHOULD be like that, it is literally how ANY ARPG works even D4 if it has difficulty settings and NOBODY feels forced to play on the highest.
That you speak about illusion of choice is the most funny thing, while do not even understand basic game design. For you argument that it “forces” players to do it. Right NOW it is the exact opposite, you are FORCED to play on easy since it is the BEST difficulty to do ANYTHING. So you have a choice play on unspoken and nerf your loot as much as possible or play on braindead difficutly, get bored but know your do not nerfed your loot.
An example just for math no real testing. I can finish 10 crucibles on easy, lets say i can finish 3 on unspoken in 1 hour. I literally nerfed my loot by far more than 50% since the loot is EXACTLY the same.
It is the WORST difficulty design I have EVER seen. And LITERALLY the exact OPPOSITE from how it should work. Hell even Borderlands and D4 do it correctly. The game Thomas jokes about.
I mean at bare minimum buff the loot on normal and hard that it negates the extra difficulty and time investment so the loot gain is the same compared to the EASIEST mode.
By your logic and own statement, you would 100% support it so poeple who want to play on standard and hard are not “forced” to play on easy right? or were we just a littlebit hypocritical ?
So Like I guessed, literally depth stolen. Attribute system is the best. And he could not even explain why respecing is “bad”
So we have fixed HP and damage curve now.. very “fun”.
Any decision in the last year is absolut dogwater in my opinion, sorry.
Why are you so reactive Juuteki? Calm yer jets.
If you are getting bored at the easiest difficulty, go Chosen or Unspoken. It’s there for you to find challenge in combat. If you don’t want to challenge yourself then I don’t understand why you play this game.
This is not going to be a loot and shooter like Borderlands, or any of your typical arpg’s where you need loot filters.
This is a different game, I wish you would understand that a little bit more.
Silas
I know why I play games. I don’t want to just make my stats increase, but I do want to feel rewarded by the gameplay. Please don’t tell me something that’s not true about what I want. I have a small feeling this might be a language/translation issue, and maybe I’m hearing something different than what you are trying to say, or vice versa.
I said “I feel like I have beaten the game…” not “I have beaten the game.” I’m talking about my own personal feelings and interests. I am not talking about the general public, or all gamers, or even you. I am talking about me.
I know what makes me keep playing a game and what makes me quit playing a game. If I feel like my build is done, I will forget about other aspects of the game and just move on. I don’t want to stop playing, it just happens.
If the rest of the game is compelling enough to stand on it’s own, without the consideration of making fun builds, then the point is moot. If the boss fights are compelling enough to draw me back, then I’ll deliberately make a ‘bad’ build to enjoy the boss fights. If all of the fun of making a build is done by level ten, I won’t finish the combat related content.
That’s me personally. I’m only talking about me.
Personally for me, this is wrong. The build IS the goal to be achieved. That is 90% of MY fun. Not your fun, or anyone else’s fun. Mine. Making my future build and the steady progression towards it is my goal. If I achieve that goal too easily, I will start playing a game that challenges my buildcrafting more.
I do not enjoy this. As a contrarian, I enjoy knowing there’s something strong or ‘optimal’ I could be doing but choosing the harder path anyways. It’s not fun for me if every path is equally ‘strong’ and equally ‘fun.’ If that was the case, there would be very little replay value for me personally, since every path will have the same level of challenge and reward. They may have different playstyles, but they will feel the same.
I understand that they did not make this game just for me, and I do not expect them to cater to my personal needs or interests. I am only making points on this feedback thread in this forum from my own perspective, and sharing my thoughts and feelings. I’m not wrong about how I feel. I would only be wrong if I tried to say that my idea of how it should work is the way that it needs to be done.
One more time, I would be wrong if I tried to say that my idea of how it should be was correct and how it should be done.
I know I’m the minority. I’m just trying to share my personal viewpoint as a means of broadening the discussion.
I agree that the difficulty selection in this game is problematic, but this is not the appropriate topic for this discussion.
I wrote a topic about it, if you’re interested in discussing it, let’s talk here: Game Accessibility, Menu Difficulty Settings Vs In-Game Difficulty Settings.
I agree that the game needs internal rewards, I’m saying that there is no need to implement them through the class system.
Possible as it seems to me that what you say is contradictory: First you say that you are not interested in level progression but then you propose that we have enhanced versions of traits.
I understand but, there are also other aspects of the build, such as gems and enchantments, that require time.
I’m not telling you that your feelings are wrong, I’m telling you that if the others game systems are implemented correctly there is no need to implement progression through the class system.
Sure but I don’t want to spend a lot of time just getting the build, because the time spent getting the build is not time spent using it, and I want to use the build, I want to test this playstyle against all the enemies and bosses.
For me the play style is what makes the experience feel different, not the strength of the build.
I’m saying that the idea you proposed most likely doesn’t lead to a good experience, and probably doesn’t lead to the experience you’re looking for.
I’m not saying you don’t know your feelings.
When I said:
I didn’t mean “you” as “Damius” but “you” plural: “players in general” but I understand the misunderstanding considering that English is a shitty language that doesn’t distinguish between “you” plural and singular.
Obviously I could have expressed myself better but, due to laziness, I didn’t do it.
I’m sorry you felt personally attacked, obviously I can’t read your mind and your experiences are yours alone.
And obviously what I say also comes from my perspective.
I can’t express how much I love your comment.
Developers makes everything too complex for themselves by trying to make a souls-like combat game with a constant progression of a modern ARPG game. I personally hate the damage mitigation system that decreases your damage reduction stat with every level. This is probably the best solution considering not only the genre, but also co-op and challenge that has to be presented even if you character is ±10 lvls of the foes’ lvl. But damn, it feels so fake. So even numbers going up is actually a white lie.
And soon we will have a class system… how will it scale with the upcoming post-release content? Who knows.
So you are just ignoring what I just said. Also literally just lying. It was never intended whatsover. At one point Thomas even said there wont be Difficulty settings in the first place.
What is this weird disgusting I am better or smarter attitude? there is nothing I do not understand. Anything I said is FACTUAL and absolut dogshit game design. And not intended, atleast in the beginning like you pretend it to be and i just dont understanding it.
Other Moderators have some common sense and gaming knewledge compared to you it seems let me quote Chemile0n for example
“switching difficulty in a created realm should not be possible.
it should also be possible to always take a character to an easier realm, but never to take items and gear from ez mode into normal and later multiplayer, ingame player markets and/or pvp. but i am pretty sure moon has that in mind as well”
Seems like moon does have this not in mind at all. And again. peak dogshit game design, you should not get punished for choosing a higher difficulty and get rewarded for choosing a lower one.
Enlighten us with your wisdom Silas, why we can not have atleast a loot buf that at minimum NEGATES the extra time. So that we have ATLEAST not a disadventage. And if I farm 1 hour crucible on easy or on hard I have at teh end the same amount of loot.
Tell me how does this a bad thing? and What is this philisophy for not being the typical ARPGs you are tlaking about in wich skilled player needs to get punished in loot droprate per time ?
I did. And loosing the depth is annoying. A foxed curve of damage and hpnis absolut garbage, sorry
Just gonna leave these side by side.
Hello dear members,
My question is crucial to my mental health.
Will the paddle still be in the game?
What class will this weapon belong to?
Kind regards,
It will definitely still be in the game. We don’t know what class it will be assigned to though.
