[Moon Studio] What is the intended experience?

[Lamni]

I don’t really mind how anybody want to call it.

The only thing that I want to know is how it will feel when I will play it.

• Is it going to be challenging ?
• Will I need to spend my time theory crafting and checking the web to get a META build ?

Like I say in the original post:

And don’t get me wrong, I have a sincere passion for this game and I’ll play the game in both cases, but:

• In the case of a more Souls-like game feel experience, I will devour everything.
• In the case of a more Diablo-like game feel experience, I think that the Main Story may be my main and only driver.

That is why, TO ME, knowing the definitive choice in the direction is so significant.

And it will also help the development team and the community to come up with more relevant suggestions.

@Patren95

How can something be defined with a word that doesn’t even exist yet?

I want to add a little bit of perspective on this one.

Nowadays we’ve done pretty much anything possible in terms of game technical and mechanical possibilities, considering PC, consoles, standard game controllers, keyboard and mouse.

I don’t see how anyone can come and pretend that they’ve “invented” something new.

If you take a look at the last 20 years new genre are just a mix and match of already known genre and mechanics.

The only things that have meaningfully changed are the graphical fidelity and the amount of content that a game can contain.

Souls-like games actually perfectly fall in that category: there is nothing mechanically or technically new, it is just how things works with each other that differs.

And you have countless games that have tried to copy the formula but don’t get the essence of what makes it unique.

So if everything I say just above is true, the only thing that really matters, regarding any game, is how it feels when you play it, which type of experience do you get out of it, not how you name it or even how you define it.

[soulzerie]

@Astont36

We want to know what NRFTW will become.

well i dont think that will happen until the game is fully finished.
trying to put it in a creative rail is absurd; this mentality is why when we get a game that truly innovates we shit on it and then innovation is done only by smaller studios with ambitious ideas and not big producers, because people always have to put everything in a category, instead of seeing it for what it is.

[Astont36]

Honestly I’m flabbergasted by this response.

I haven’t at all tried to shit on the game, nor do I want to put it into a category, I just want a clearer understanding on which direction the game is going, or atleast have a discussion with others to get their opinions on where they hope for it to go.

I understand the actual point you are trying to make about AAA companies getting comfy but honestly you should have just left your reply with

@soulzerie

well i dont think that will happen until the game is fully finished.

Cause everything you said after kinda just feels like an attack. Saying something is wrong with my mentality regarding my current thoughts of the game. I’m questioning the game based on it’s current state, not what’s upcoming, because I don’t know what is coming. I guess curiosity really did kill the cat.

[Patren95]

I’d like to clarify that my thoughts are merely speculations based on what the CEOs have stated in some posts on X.
That being said, I believe that elements taken from the Souls and Diablo genres will never be abandoned; rather, they will be modified to create an optimal synergy between the two genres and paired with a Metroidvania exploration system.
The video games that Thomas has often mentioned in his posts are Zelda, Dark Souls/Elden Ring (Soulslike), and Diablo. I’m quite confident that NRFTW will incorporate various systems from these games.
As for the challenge offered by NRFTW, I don’t think it will be as high as that offered by a soulslike, which, in my opinion, isn’t necessarily a bad thing.

• In the case of a more Souls-like game feel experience, I will devour everything.
• In the case of a more Diablo-like game feel experience, I think that the Main Story may be my main and only driver.

Considering the words of the CEOs and what the EA currently offers, my opinion is that the game’s direction is right in the middle.

Nowadays we’ve done pretty much anything possible in terms of game technical and mechanical possibilities, considering PC, consoles, standard game controllers, keyboard and mouse.
I don’t see how anyone can come and pretend that they’ve “invented” something new.
If you take a look at the last 20 years new genre are just a mix and match of already known genre and mechanics.
The only things that have meaningfully changed are the graphical fidelity and the amount of content that a game can contain.
Souls-like games actually perfectly fall in that category: there is nothing mechanically or technically new, it is just how things works with each other that differs.

I absolutely agree with what you’re saying.
However, I don’t think that comparing the development of Dark Souls is an ideal point of reference for NRFTW.
Dark Souls owes much of its structure to Demon’s Souls, almost positioning itself as its sequel.
Do you think that if you had the opportunity to try out Demon’s Souls in its earliest version, you would have already had a clear idea of the game’s direction without knowing how it actually turned out in the market? Perhaps so, but honestly, I don’t think so.

[soulzerie]

fair, i apologize; was not my intent but i can see what you mean.

[Lamni]

We agree on most observations.

@Patren95

Do you think that if you had the opportunity to try out Demon’s Souls in its earliest version, you would have already had a clear idea of the game’s direction without knowing how it actually turned out in the market?

The real answer is “I don’t know” but something that I mentioned earlier in this topic makes me think that it needs more perspective:

This makes me think about something that I noticed between Western and Eastern game development processes.

When on the Eastern side the main philosophy is: “How little do I need to get the intended experience?”.
On the Western side it is more: “Let’s put everything inside and see what happens!”,

A kind of Bottom-Top, Top-Bottom mismatch philosophy.

If I could give an example I would give Mario(or Zelda). No matter which Mario game you take you can strip Mario out of the equation and it is still a good game because its core game design philosophy and intended experience, how you play and how it feels, is the primary focus.

I like how passionate you are @Patren95 .

[Warlan]

Reality is this is EA and they asked for feedback. It’s impossible to give proper feedback if it’s unclear what type of game they are trying to make. If they want to make a wicked like- fine. What is that exactly? Surely they have a vision. What is that vision precisely? Give us something-saying a blend of genres is not helpful to give proper feedback-especially when those genres are polar opposites. Sure that vision can change when they find things that work or don’t work but honestly the combat style changes rapidly over the course of 10 hours. Is that intended??? Does anyone know? Is the game supposed to be really easy after 10 hours?? I feel like Im here to VOLUNTEER my help but they put me in a closet and locked the key.

TO THE DEVS: HELP US HELP YOU!

[Garrieff]

I re-read my post and I don’t think I was being quite as clear as I thought I was. I was speaking generally not specifically combat. I think most people are of the consensus that the soulslike combat seems to be the draw of this game. I was speaking more of the loot driven system of Diablo/ARPGS for instance as apposed to the combat. I agree they need to choose a style (and I think souls like is my preference).

My post was more that I think people are getting ahead of the developers on what they are planning and envisioning what they want rather than what it will be. I was wondering what level and or power level we are suposed to be by the time we finish the final section in this build we are playing? Are we all just overly powerful for what is in front of us and is that part of the problem?

[Garrieff]

@soulzerie

if you told me that dark souls shouldn’t have diablo mechanics or vice versa i’d agree with you, but what we are saying here is that a completely separate game that has some ties to these games should be one of the two; you understand how this is narrowing the vision for what NRFTW is?

I agree with you in principle but I would say that you could argue this is more a Diablo with soulslike combat. I agree it will be it’s own thing but you can’t ignore the games that were the inspiration. I think a lot of people are worried about powercreep in the game which is a ARPG thing and therefore the sticking point on this thread.

I am not entirely sure the developers are currently moving on their vision but getting a feel for which idea they come up with the community likes.

I was curious (and asked it elsewhere but never really got answers) how different the game felt for people the second time they played it? Did it feel like playing a souls game for the second time or was it more like playing Diablo for the second time? Did it retain that feeling that people had the first time they played it?

[soulzerie]

i’d agree if it wasn’t for the fact that the way this is being discussed rejects or outright cancels possible design choices that could strive for a different game genre/type.
if in this topic i was reading stuff like (as an example) “yeah so the slowness and intentionality of combat is overshadowed by the classic arpg characteristics and certain elements of combat”
this is still posing the soulsy side against the diablo side but without narrowing the vision as much.
some people in this topic are discussing like this (and dont get me wrong, i have no right whatsoever to say how people should discuss or what they should say, and that is not what im trying to defend here), but i see some saying “it has to be either souls or diablo” and this is what i heavily disagree with.
of course everyone is free to argue and counterargue, im just putting out there my perspective

also, quick edit, i think i expressed it poorly and aggressively for no reason so that’s my bad lol

[Garrieff]

@soulzerie

also, quick edit, i think i expressed it poorly and aggressively for no reason so that’s my bad lol

I don’t think you did at all. We all know that text does not always convey the way we would like it to.

[Tom]

“Soulslike” and “Diablolike” are just labels grouping different characteristics of a game. U can simply resolve those labels to their actual meaning if you dont want to stereotype wicked to be more souls or diablolike. In the end we are talking about these base characteristics and what of them fit into the new “wickedlike” characterisics-group. Its interesting to see what fits and what does not fit or even go together.

Labels simply things which can lead to different understandings of “soulslike” and “diablolike”. Merging those together to create a new “Type” must be a painful process … its always like that because ppl want to keep there comforts and what they are used to. This discussion is part of this process. I really respect that Moon tries this … its a risky path. After all we got certainty about what works and what not, but somebody has to try it out. There is no other form of learning.

[Diman]

Here I am reading user tips on making changes to the game in one place or another, and I come to the conclusion that these very tips, no matter how they spoil the game, since:

1. It is still unclear what the game as a whole is from the developer, since at the moment we have early access, which does not give us all the fully realized ideas of the developer. it is not optimized to the end, not all mechanics work correctly and other things. Hence the conclusion that we don’t see the whole picture to talk fully about the game.
2. The game developer, after listening to our advice, can easily forget the potential of his own idea, i.e. how exactly he wanted to raise it, move away from his own interests, which can greatly affect the quality of the game as a whole.

The game is still very well implemented, but at the moment its early access gives us very little, so to speak, only the beginning of adventures, crafting, and something else we haven’t even seen. I have already played the game for 100 hours, playing it I skipped a week of work, this suggests that for me personally, the game has become ideal and I want to play it endlessly, the only thing I would like at the moment is more locations, since in the data I have already worn everything to holes with my 3 characters. Some advice from myself, the only thing that can be the development of crafting is higher, but again, it may already have it all, it’s just that it’s in an early version of the game.

[soulzerie]

@Tom read this
explains why i’m standing my ground on this topic

[lrbanthony]

This is hilariously untrue. I’ve managed to get myself to level 7 before even getting to the torn.

[Evocator1000]

I get where you’re coming from. Truly. I have thought about this a lot.

My take on that topic is the following:
I have faith the dev team knows what they are getting themselves into. This is not the first EA Game, that asks for feedback.

As long as we just discuss ideas or directions the game could take and systems that could work, we are strictly talking hypotheticals.

This forum is a soundboard for:

• What the community cares about, likes and dislikes and wants to see, what could potentially be included or addressed in some way
• What minor or major problems the community perceives, which should be solved or at least addressed in some way or another
• What ideas the community has, that could potentially be salvaged

Based on this, imo we have to trust Moon Studios to not follow the communities lead blindly - which I am sure they wont - and keep talking

• … And maybe take a hiatus from time to time, wait for the next patch and reevaluate