Late Game Mage is REALLY Fun, too much fun

Wicked Feedback
1

End game mage is very fun, borderline insane to think that I was playing melee for most of my time with nrftw. Never before realizing how fast and easy mage can be. This sentiment makes me second guess whether the mage experience is subtractive to the melee experience overall.

Being able to spam spells is super fun, with the right enchantments you don’t even need the legendary rings to have an infinite supply of focus. And with the insane variety of spells it’s super easy to pick which ever you want for your playstyle.

The Real Issue I am feeling from the mage experience is that compared to many melee builds, its too easy to dps, clear mobs, and overall debilitate enemies.

  1. Example one being Blast spells are Too Cheap, and overall Too Good of a spell. 50 focus cost for a spell that can easily lock on to enemies within LOS (Line of Sight). In addition has almost no start up or end lag to the move. Making blast spells EXTREMELY good at clearing mobs. Lightning Blast is my go-to spell since it doesn’t have a large AOE to hit Co-op players, and has the possibility to shock other enemies when proccing lightning.
  2. Mages have more variety of elemental rune attacks compared to melee users. One handed weapons do have a decent variety, but not many ranged elemental attacks. Two handed weapons are generally what I use and there is only ONE ice rune attack (Ice Ram). I hope in the future there will be more elemental varieties for melee, especially two handers to have options to debilitate enemies without resorting to coatings and infusions.
    1. What Sucks is that if I were to try and freeze and enemy with Ice Ram, generally the enemies die before they are frozen. It feels as if the attack has a mix of physical and elemental damage. Those Torn Bloaters I try to hit with Ice Ram, only to get hit in the face with their death explosion cause Ice Ram didn’t freeze before it died. COMPELTLY negating the purpose of having an ice move to nullify the bloaters death-plosion.
  3. Playing Co-op with mages leads to the mage hogging the kills. I have been catching myself doing what I once called out mages put for doing, that is spamming certain attacks (Blast Spells) and killing enemies before other players even get a chance to approach. Its just too easy to kill mobs at range as a pure mage in quick succession. Being able to recover Focus on Fatality, Reduce Focus Cost on Rune Attack, and legendary rings makes the whole issue easier to induce. I’ve also caught myself thinking “if I don’t play mage, then someone else will and hog the kills”. I don’t have a good suggestion in mind on how to fix this issue, but I would like to feel more than comfortable playing melee without feeling compelled to play mage.
  4. Enchants and some gear are too good for mages.
    1. For example, due to the base critical chance on staves/wands being 40%. Its easy to build up Critical Damage due to its base stat of 10% unlike Critical Chance being 5%. And Crit Dmg increases by 5% each exalt, whereas Crit Chance goes up only by 2.5%, literally scaling at 1/2 the rate as Crit Dmg.
    2. Rune Ring is too good. Mages never really use melee attacks, therefore the negative on the ring to reduce Attack Damage is pretty pointless. 20% Rune Damage is equivalent to the Fierce Ring’s stat, BUT without the caveat of having to activate the effect.
    3. Since Mages are more than often attacking at range, and have access to rune attacks with whatever element the player wants. It’s equally more easier to choose gems that increase enchant power. When I play melee I’m more often infusing my weapon with an elemental gem.

I would like to Suggest…

  1. adding other elemental rune attacks to melee weapons for more variety. Especially ones that would do more pure elemental damage, at the expense of more end-lag maybe? Something so that freezing a Bloater with one good hit freezes and kills them.
  2. changing how the Blast Spells work, make them require the player to aim the spell in a translucent circle on the ground. AND it has to arch through the air and cannot easily hit enemies at different heights. Making the spell unable to easily clear rooms on LOS alone.
  3. change the crit chance on wands/staves to equal the average melee crit chance of ~25%. and crit dmg to ~120%
  4. maybe change how rune ring works?
2

Agreed, magic does a lot at comparably low risk. Haven’t seen a Souls game get this right. Maybe it’s a consequence of stamina runes and low-risk focus gain becoming available.

You’re mathematically wrong about the critical hit profile of wands/staves being overpowered. The four profiles are relatively evenly matched. The 10% chance/200% damage profile is best, especially with exalting or enchantment power. (Rule of thumb: Optimal damage is achieved when bonus crit damage is 2× crit chance.)

Miscellaneous and somewhat unrefined points:

  • Mages not only have rune variety, but also have access to all melee runes on wands/staves. Base damage is lower than 2H weapons, but comparable to rapiers. Some wands have especially good running attacks, to the point that I’ve seen them used as viable melee weapons in low-level PvP.
  • Elemental variety on non-magical runes could be considered better as they inherit weapon elements, which magic runes don’t. Excluding oils and infusions and complaining about low elemental variety feels arbitrary. That said, of course more runes would be great.
  • Playing Summer’s Sting with an unga-bunga build in a group with an archer and a magic-user, I tend to hog the kills. Not exactly ‘commitment-based combat’, but running in and swinging wildly works on Unspoken.
  • Non-magic weapons (especially 2H) can debilitate with stagger damage and guaranteed knockdowns; magic has a much harder time of it.
  • The exact same focus-regaining enchantments you mention work for melee builds, which can use cheap knockdown runes.
  • Ice Ram does only ice damage. From my testing, individual hits only ever have one element and ailment build-up is proportional to damage (outside of lightning uniques and the glove enchantments). Is the issue maybe that it does too much damage?
3

Right now, it really feels like the damage from elemental rune attacks is being split into physical damage and elemental damage. And it also seems like the damage itself determines how much the status effect builds up on enemies.

The first part actually makes sense, since melee builds often still scale physical damage. But the second part is something that should maybe be reconsidered.

Not only do magic attacks almost always apply their status effect on the very first hit, but with melee weapons this almost never happens, simply because the enemy usually dies before the status effect can even trigger.

I really think elemental damage and status effect buildup should be separated for balancing purposes.

I know that would make development much more tedious, since every rune, oil, and gem would require manually adjusted values for both aspects, but I’m pretty sure it would be worth it in the long run.

4

Damage isn’t split, and physical damage boosts also do not increase the damage of elemental runes. This makes your point about melee builds ‘stacking physical damage’ a moot one. Players are encouraged to choose one damage type and stack that. It is very reasonable to stack lightning damage on a melee build.

(Also, why does it ‘feel like’ that? At least on the mathematical side, the scaling is consistent. I’ve compared 300%-bonus-damage rune attacks with wands and rapiers, which caused identical build-up. I’m reasonably sure it comes down to two-handed weapons doing high damage in single hits.)

This is complete hogwash. It’s not even consistent with what you yourself have written in the first paragraph (build-up scales with damage). Almost all elemental damage[1], very much including that of swords and clubs, builds status, and it does so immediately. Only excessive damage instantly triggers the status (builds it up fully).

Perhaps you are confused by different elemental damage types acting differently (like Burn ticking immediately, while Shock does its effect when fully built up)? I can’t see where you would get this idea otherwise.

Not necessarily. It’d be a trivial solution to have a ‘status build-up modifier’ and only apply that to specific moves as needed (and that’s already in the game); or to use a non-linear function to shape the relationship between damage dealt and status build-up.

  1. Except damage-while-blocking gems in shields, self damage from Wind of Death, and maybe friendly fire? ↩︎

5

Maybe I explained my point poorly.

What I’m mainly referring to are elemental oils and gems, because from my own testing they do seem to noticeably affect how elemental damage and status buildup behave on melee weapons.

For example, when comparing a spell to a heavy two-handed attack that both deal very similar damage numbers, the spell often builds up significantly more status effect than the melee hit does.

That’s where my impression mainly comes from. From a gameplay perspective, elemental spells seem much more reliable and efficient at applying status effects than elemental melee attacks infused through oils or gems.

And yes, I know there are probably hidden modifiers and more complicated calculations behind the scenes. I’m not claiming to know the exact formulas.

I’m simply describing how the system currently feels in actual gameplay.

Especially with slower melee weapons, enemies often die before a status effect can realistically trigger, while spells frequently apply them almost immediately.

And honestly, your idea about using a separate status buildup modifier is already very close to what I was trying to suggest in the first place.

Whether it’s handled through a multiplier, a separate buildup value, or another internal mechanic doesn’t really matter to me. My main point is simply that elemental melee weapons currently feel much weaker at applying status effects compared to spells, and I think the buildup on melee attacks could use some improvement.

6

Please assume no malice behind my very blunt reply.

I don’t believe that you explained a single point poorly, but rather that your many points are almost all wrong. I also believe you have done no relevant testing, or else would have immediately realised your points are incorrect.

  • Oils only increase build-up because they increase damage (by 20%).
  • At equal damage numbers a spell rune will build up the exact same status as an elemental weapon attack.
  • Spells are only more reliable in as much as they tend to do multiple instances of lower damage. Large two-handed weapons can be compared to oneshot spells, which also potentially skip the status trigger.
  • There are no hidden modifiers (outside of the list I gave above, which I believe to be relatively exhaustive) or complicated formulas. The relationship between damage dealt and status built is linear.
  • The ‘separate status build-up modifier’ is not my idea, but already exists in-game, specifically (and only) for the Static and Fire Walk runes.

Lastly and somewhat subjectively, maybe because I play with builds and modifiers that make enemies relatively tanky, I have absolutely no issue applying status effects with melee weapons, even two-handed ones, against all enemies except the ones I oneshot.

Minimal proof of my first two points. All weapons with no facets, 10 in scaling stats, upgrade level 1. Chosen to do relatively even damage once oil is applied to the spear.

Actual damage calculations, before target dummy resistance:

  • Fire Dart critically hitting with a rune with 30% bonus damage, for a total of 1.25×1.3×10 or 16.25
  • Assegai with the 20% oil buff hitting for 1.2×14 or 16.8
  • Unholy Hearth hitting with its first attack in the chain (10% bonus damage, inherent fire infusion) for 1.1*16 or 17.6

Observe the proportional status build-up.

7

Thank you for your answers and testing, appreciate it.

To answer your points..

  1. Not much to add…
  2. Elemental Variety, I understand what you are saying and sure, if you want to do elemental damage all the time, not much issue with infusions or facets. My complaint comes from using Ice and Shatter combos. If I want to do shatter dmg as a 2-hand wielder I only have Ice Ram to do ice damage unless I infuse. Which then If I infuse a weapon I HAVE to switch to another weapon to do physical damage. Now this is probably just me rambling as a 2-Hander simp. But 1-Hand weapons have 3? different ice runes to deal ice dmg, and of course mages have a bunch of spells to choose from. Seems to me that adding 1-2 other rune attacks would help give 2 and 1-h weapons options? Throw is great for 1-handers, but I find it easy to miss enemies if they move around a lot.
  3. My experience in groups is always mages get a munch of kills, every decent mage I have played with are always using fire/lightning blast, and plague smite. All of which are stupidly easy to spam if focus/health regen ain’t an issue. And I too fell into the same rabbit hole when I made a mage. Maybe I too need to find a new 2-hander that does wide sweeping attacks, problem is I can’t support/be near anyone else cause of the wide swings…
  4. I tried stagger builds that include plague damage cause the plague enchantment for chest pieces that reduces enemy stagger resistance when plagued… Even with a hammer at lv 30, mobs die too quick, and bosses still feel as though it takes way too long to stagger them. 5-10 hits is what I recall needing to stagger a boss with ~30 stagger dmg. And that is if the boss doesn’t move too far to drain their stagger meter…Whereas magic makes it super easier to trigger elemental statuses and combinations.
  5. I understand and agree with the enchantments being evenly available. Problem is that I feel that mages synergize with said enchantments more so than melee. Solely on the basis that they can easily utilize their range to kill mobs before the enemies even notice them, inflict the boss with an ailment without having to get close, and not have to commit to defense when everything dies or get afflicted to a single spell.
  6. you are correct that Ice Ram kills enemies in one go, therefore too much damage. My main reason to use Ice Ram is to freeze enemies like the Torn Bloaters and Sirens, if frozen they don’t explode and release smaller enemies.

Please give me your opinion, but after reading your thoughts. Maybe I’m trying to play more to a generalist build? Obviously 2-handers do more damage at the cost of speed, and mages have their elemental kits that they can play with. I originally played melee, and then mage. Mage just felt so utilitarian cause of the ailments, freezing, combining elements like seared and overload. As a 2-hander player it seems a bit unfair that mages get to have so many ways to clear rooms, compared to a 2-hander that I HAVE to run up to every individual enemy or group to kill. Not many ranged options especially at varying heights. Even though I do a LOT of damage as a 2-hander, I clear areas far slower than as a mage.

8

There was a time when 2H weapons had access to the Throw Weapon Runes which now is one handed only, but i can atleast still experience that in the legacy build of the game :grin:

-Edit: it seems that you like using 2H weapons for freeze and shatter you could always try the physical staff Pinwheel Staff and put Ice Ram and the frost stream rune on it you can utilize the Run Attack as the shatter, and you only need frost build up on your gloves and physical for the rest.

I think there is a rune that you can use on all weapons that doesn’t get its physical dmg overridden by your weapons infusion?

And what about bombs?

Yes me too, thats why i choose and prefer playing with melee weapons mostly because i like that playstyle, i still use wands too but i mostly use their roll attacks :grin: some wands have really nice roll attacks! (Looks like a lunge forward attack and then backs away)

-Edit: The wand im specifically referring to is Rune-Stricken Wand in the Normal or heavy weight class

9

There is Dual Breaker on the Brothers Keepers, which is bleed-infused and as such always does physical (bleed) damage. It can shatter even when the daggers are ice-infused.

The only other candidates I can think of are runes with a physical component (like Drone Trap, which is widely available, or more narrowly the physical projectiles in Skybreaker and Plague Column). I think they inherit weapon infusions for the physical component, but will briefly re-test later.

Edit: Drone Trap remains physical even with a chipped ruby slotted in, so that’s the ticket. Skybreaker inherits the infusion.

Do you mean the backhop-into-projectile? A few wands have this as running or even neutral attacks! Also certain wands have almost no endlag on regular attacks, so a quickstep build with Tarnished Wand can be a menace in PvP.

Not just you. :grin: Since 2H weapons are getting eight runes with the class update, I think the 2H lads will be living like a bee in clover. Meanwhile, my preference is a fencing sword with an empty off-hand, the eternal unsupported archetype.

Most everyone I’ve seen who’s tried the plague-stagger combo found it underwhelming. The minmax way to efficiently stagger is a bonus-poise-damage rune on an attack-speed-from-durability 2H weapon with gem and facet geared towards staggering. That’s upwards of 50 poise damage, effectively doubled or more with good runes. (I especially value Tremor Slam for inflicting poise damage at range; similarly Tremor Wave and Buster Rift on gauntlets.)

There are even niche 1H and gauntlet builds that can inflict even more stagger per second (using running attacks or Fire Flurry, generally). That said, I completely agree that status is much easier to trigger. I can fully build bleed with one or two charged attacks of my rapier against everything.

I think we’re unfortunately in complete agreement that magic plays far better with elements, has a great advantage in range and flexibility, and that rune variety is low on some weapons for now.

Regarding the ‘generalist’ idea: Is that weapon swapping? I’ve seen weapon-swap suggested as the fix for elemental variety (Icebreaker on a mage, or one of the many Faith 2H weapons, combined with a caster-type weapon), but that just moves the problem around and caters to quirks of the attribute system rather than supporting my class fantasy.

Regarding clear speed, the only way 2H can beat magic in my experience is by leaning heavily into move and attack speed (from durability, that’s insane on fast 2H swords), and then only when clearing multiple groups of enemies back-to-back, when even 900-focus mages get exhausted. This goes out of the window if the mage is using lifesteal with Ring of Cringe or focus-on-fatality. Against bosses most builds can still get to oneshot territory, and magic is much safer.

The sustain angle might be one of the advantages of 2H warriors, but is hardly tested in a game with slow engagements. Might give 2H builds an edge in horde modes. Even then 2H kills too fast to use on-stagger enchantments. On a Landsknecht build, I’ve left a 2H weapon unupgraded so it’d kill slower and let me regain resources on stagger.

I don’t have a magic bullet (except waiting for 1.0) and agree with your impressions. Playing mage next to melee proves that comparison is the thief of joy.

10

The wand im specifically referring to is Rune-Stricken Wand in the Normal or heavy weight class, as i think it isnt possible to do this type of attack without access to normal or heavy roll.

The quickstep attack is essentially the same as the run attack on the Rune-Stricken Wand perhaps with some variation maybe?

It would be fun to see a dodge roll build with the Rune-Stricken Wand and similar wands with the same Roll Attack (i hope i dont see it in PvP)

11

That one looks really fast and stylish, but it has punishable startup and endlag, doesn’t move players too far back, and has no i-frames. The same attack is on Flame Becomes Us and Lord of the Muck. Fast players might be able to parry it on reaction. (Compare the Hoar Frost Sickle, which has a 2-frame startup on its running attack and a good follow-up. That’s two frames faster than a parry from neutral.)

As a very impractical trick, here’s how to perform the normal/heavy roll attack even while in quickstepping weight: Certain states force a regular roll, such as when getting up after being shieldbashed or kicked to the ground by the Risen. That regular roll can be chained into roll attacks.

12

I mean that sounds very impractical, but HEY! i would probably consider it over using the Heavy Roll Only Downside x)

The only Wand out of those 3 that has i-frames atleast in the Normal Attack chain is the Rune-Stricken Wand but ofc this is just my empty statement.
I do wonder tho, Do you know if Movement Speed and Attack Speed combined improve start up and recovery? (maybe its mostly an Illusion to how it Feels but i cant stop wondering)

13

It’s impractical unless we’ll get an option to faceplant ourselves.

I think so too. As far as I know there are only two wands with i-frames at all, outside of runes, with Amberhusk having the same animation as the finale of the chain.

Not sure about attack speed and overall speed and its impact on frame data. I considered testing whether it impacts parry frames, but haven’t come up with a good method.