Falling or getting rammed of ledges in Crucible

[Lombix_4]

@StivenHunt

I am ok with options being provided in the world settings if they don’t take considerable amount of development time, but it should be hard by default and opt out if you want to have easier time.

I would avoid it if it is not strictly necessary and I talk about it here: Difficulty and Accessibility (even if we already know that it will be implemented) for me there should be a unified experience at least for the first playthrough.

@StivenHunt

In previous paragraphs you said some contradictory things. Was dying to boss in DS1 bad because the respawned enemies posed no challenge? Or because players weren’t entertained with such challenge and wanted to face the boss? Or challenging path to a boss is ok, but it simply was communication problem between the game and the player? I didn’t played Ori so im not sure what you mean by communication problem.

So actually I wasn’t very clear here, so basically:

@StivenHunt

Was dying to boss in DS1 bad because the respawned enemies posed no challenge?

Yes, also because the players have already faced and overcome the challenge, and it becomes very simple even after only 3 tries (I’m generalizing).

@StivenHunt

Or because players weren’t entertained with such challenge and wanted to face the boss?

Both things are true, one does not preclude the other, Different players start out in one of the two experiences and then end up having both together. The path itself is not simple but it becomes so because it is like a puzzle already solved, but being a section in which you have to be careful it becomes heavy and actually consumes part of the player’s attention resources for the boss fight.

@StivenHunt

Or challenging path to a boss is ok, but it simply was communication problem between the game and the player?

In practice in Ori 2 between phase 1 and phase 2 of a specific boss fight there is a platforming section, once completed you get to the second phase with a second arena, and if you die in the second phase you respawn at the beginning of the second phase, it’s an example that incorporates a platforming section into a boss fight and not a runback, so sorry if I wasn’t very clear here a more accurate example is the fight against all the flying creatures before the actual boss fight in NRFTW, the initial section is a bit like a runback but it’s actually incorporated into the boss fight, and it’s clear and well communicated.

@StivenHunt

Your point with bosses is not entirely true, in pestilence outbreaks boss can spawn somewhat far from closest echo, i’ve had pleasure to experience this myself where boss spawned in a “crying faces” cave in lowland meadows. Closest echo was the one right after huntress boss arena. So while during campaign players have echoes very close to the bosses, in the endgame activities it is not always the case. I think we should differentiate campaign from endgame activity.

If you think about it though, in the case of the plague you have already faced and beaten the boss, so the learning has already been done to a large extent and it is not a big problem if you do a bit of runback.

@StivenHunt

For me everything is fair as long as game rules are not overly vague and i have a counterplay (either skill, knowledge or grind based, not pay2win one).

We are simply weighing the word differently, I use it to indicate the lack of balance between points that I believe should be equivalent, even if the difference is not that much, in fact I am not saying that the falls are in an unacceptable state, I am just saying that the sekiro system is an improvement.

@StivenHunt

Lets not kid ourselves, if devs were to remove fall damage they would never increase platforming complexity to compensate. If they did they would be review bombed again and there would be threads on this forum titled “PLATFORMING ELEMENTS DOES NOT BELONG IN SOULSLIKE GAME!”. I’ve already seen such sentiments with current level of platforming elements.

You are very pessimistic, I can understand it but I believe that: if the devs think that it enriches the game, without compromising the artistic vision of the game, they will implement it (and I think that’s the right mindset to give suggestions).

@StivenHunt

Frustration is very subjective topic and it is not always the best move to make game less frustrating, because if you try to eliminate every possible frustration point you would create a very bland, nothing burger.

I agree, but falling and losing 70%hp (more or less I think 60%hp to 90%hp is ok) is still frustrating (Especially if there are enemies nearby), just less so, I’m not removing so much frustration that it makes the falls bland.

@StivenHunt

Is it? Can’t there be a system that is purely skill based and cannot be “cheesed” with other means on every single build?

I don’t think it’s a case of saying that it’s a “cheese” to prepare yourself to overcome an obstacle,

@StivenHunt

Much more challenging mechanic that i would categorize similar to this problem is echo knight aoe slam, it cannot be parried (can it?), it cannot be outrun unlike the caretaker aoe slam, it always knocks you out so you don’t have time to eat food between slams and it makes it somewhat hard to dodge the consecutive slams when you need to get up first, also does a lot of damage (at least in pestilence 4 with 10 curses). Your only options are to either burst the boss, master dodge windows or try your luck with managing stagger bar so that you can stun him right before he starts and im here all for it!

Yes it is very difficult but I think it is correct since as you said you have a way to interrupt the attack, also if you are of the right level you have to be hit 2/3 times to die, you have to mess up the timing 2/3 times in a row, also I don’t know if you knew but if you are hit by the second wave and you spamroll you always dodge the third wave too, without considering that it is an attack that is very easy to understand visually.

And that’s why I say that falling should be less punishing, against the strongest attack of the strongest boss in the game you have many options, and you can make mistakes even 1/2 times and survive while falling gives you fewer options and you always die after just one mistake.

@StivenHunt

Do you move with a controller, mouse or a WSAD?
Mouse is most accurate, second is controller, WASD is abysmal, but it cannot be helped.

I tried WASD (I played all souls and sekiro with WASD) but I use a controller and I’m fine with it (but as I said, I’m not complaining because I have difficulty with the mechanics, I have 425h and I almost never fall, I’m discussing the thing from a game design point of view)

@StivenHunt

Do you play mostly in a light, medium or heavy weight?
I found light weight dodges to be more prone to miscalculations resulting with fall death in a tight spaces.

I played mostly medium and light (like 58% medium - 40% light - 2% heavy) and I agree with you that light is less “maneuverable”.

@StivenHunt

Do you play hardcore mode or standard?
Hardcore mode is meant to be an additional challenge you take on yourself, loosing character due to fall death is included within the deal.

I played mostly standard mode (Obviously), but I made 2 characters in hardcore. The first one died in the early game due to a problem with the camera during a fight . The second one is not dead yet but I haven’t played it much, and I noticed that the approach to the game is different, and that, if there is an area with moral drops and little loot it is not even worth going (that’s why I mentioned it).