Remove PoE-like zoomy gameplay immediately

My view: Moon should immediately nerf/delete PoE-like zoomy gameplay the moment it is identified.

If you don’t: By waiting, you make people comfortable with the idea that they can play like this, and that it’s intended as part of the game. And because it’s the fastest way to clear content, players will (aspire to) play this way. People will make content about it, players will consume that content and put in time to copy it. If you nerf it after all the above happens, you’re going to rightfully upset many people, and likely get review bombed. This is exactly why PoE2 is turning into PoE1.5 (PoE1 with pretty graphics), and personally the reason why I don’t intend to play it much anymore.

If you do nerf/delete it immediately: you will indeed upset a few people and probably get some bad reviews. But people will get a clear picture: this is not what the intended gameplay is, we will not let the game become this, if you found a way you should expect it to be addressed soon. This sets clear expectations, and people can focus on enjoying the game the way it was intended, while some people get some small moments of “haha I found a completely game breaking thing, let’s laugh about it for a day and then report it”.

This post is for any (current and future) cases where the game becomes too zoomy, so that Moon can quickly identify and address them.

The only current instance of this that I’m aware of is: Battlecry ring leading to infinite rune attacks.

Battlecry ring + lifesteal lets players use rune attacks infinitely. This lets you use the most broken attacks with no downside, while those rune attacks can normally be so strong without issues because their fp cost is gigantic.

If the battlecry ring has a downside saying “rune attacks can no longer steal life” this would mean the player needs to gain life between rune attacks (or have enormous amounts of life regen, which I imagine is also something you don’t intend to be possible). That in turn means that they can’t spam rune attacks infinitely anymore.


I’m not aware of any other such infinite blast mechanics right now, but I’ll report them when I see them. I imagine people will definitely find a few more after 1.0, so it’d be good that we can address them quickly at that point.

I strongly agree, especially with the second paragraph of your first post.


If I were to attempt an argument against nerfs, I’d begin with where to draw the line for degenerate gameplay. Being overpowered is fine for brief intervals during progression, as the world will get harder in a stepwise fashion to compensate. One might argue, and indeed Thomas has argued, that the current outliers are there simply because the next difficulty tier is not in the game yet.

In my opinion your second paragraph explains why this argument is flawed; players have gotten used to this power level.

But Battlecry/Determination go further: They are degenerate because they permanently break the arms-race logic. Focus cost is static while damage (and therefore health restoration) increases. The devs have repeatedly adjusted lifesteal, but introducing a scalar just raises the minimum damage such that you restore the full focus cost of a spell. Your fix works nicely. I’ve considered alternatives:

  • Lifesteal could be independent of damage, for instance by being a percentage of focus generated from weapon attacks.
  • If damage/health numbers remained even across levels (e. g. if higher-level enemies had higher DR instead of larger health pools), health restoration from lifesteal would remain bounded.

A second counter-argument can be attempted from the observation that builds are currently able to oneshot nearly every enemy in the game, and if a single cast won’t do the trick players can just roll up with 900 max focus and try five more times. No Battlecry required!

The argument, then, is that Battlecry just removes the tedium of preparing for such an overpowering rune barrage (nuke an enemy, teleport home, alternate Channel and bed rest to fill focus, nuke the next enemy from orbit).[1]

… to which I’d respond that oneshots from orbit and completely safe out-of-fight focus generation are hopefully not the intended experience either. The tedium exists to tell players they’re doing something abusive. Removing the tedium tells players they’re doing it right.

I’m not suggesting safe, out-of-combat focus generation is inherently wrong; just that it should be limited, as a reward for good preparation or as a tactic to attempt against individual tough enemies, not as the default approach.


Since you’re collecting the extreme outliers:

Infinite-stamina builds, trivially achieved with jade ring. A speed-focused shortbow using stutter-step-cancelled attacks is basically shooting an infinite, stronger Multi Shot rune. Spamming the dodge attack gives infinite mobility. Both generate focus (to be used, for instance, on knockdowns).

Demon’s Key or Tucked Falcon: A single seven-hit attack generates at minimum 56 focus, with gentle optimisation over 100, allowing use of an AoE knockdown rune. This creates an opening for the next seven-hit combo (or two). Almost completely risk-free against everything short of bosses. Simply fixed by adding a focus generation penalty to the attack.

Do you think these two fit your criteria for removal?


  1. Elden Ring had the same indefensible rubbish with Comet Azur. ↩︎

This is a great way of putting it.

I personally don’t mind if we keep focus regen out of combat, since it’ll be so tedious it’s something a good player will avoid in most scenarios. It won’t be “a zoomy meta” when people are standing around waiting for focus regen. Players that know how to fight and survive would be faster. And a big bossfight should take more than 1 filled focus bar anyhow, so that seems reasonably balanced.

Focus regen of course should be limited, so it doesn’t allow infinite rune spamming either.

I haven’t tried them myself so I can’t be completely confident, but from how you describe it I would say yes.

They could simply put a 1 or more downsides on Battlecry Ring and Determination Ring for example:

  • Decrease Damage by 100%
  • Decrease Rune Damage by 100%
  • Decrease Poise Damage by 100%
  • Decrease Elemental Buildup by 95%
  • Decrease Damage over Time by 95%
  • etc.

(Just an example, change however you like)

It would probably make these rings highly recommended for Support roles and benefit debuffers/buffers and healers?

Edit: Just gonna add that im a bit skeptical towards my own suggestion. It would be alot easier to just change the whole effect to something else entirely.