The goal of this topic is to open the discussion of the Invasion Mechanic for future application in No Rest For The Wicked (NRFTW).
This is inspired by the podcast:
Why Almost No One Adds PvP to Their SOULS-LIKE Games? | PODCAST with DEVS!.
Thank you for Silas Inservio Pax for sharing the podcast with the discord for a very insightful podcast with multiple game developers and players experienced in Invasions in Soul-like games. The podcast included Thomas Mahler (CEO of Moon Studios), Saul Gascon (ex EP of Hexworks), and Fr0sty (co-host), and Steelovsky (Host). Highly recommend watching the podcast as everyone brought important benefits and issues with the Invasion Mechanic and how the implementation and supporting system including ARPG combat drives such a notorious mechanic in soul-likes. The podcast also includes Area Modes and traditional fighting modes in ARPGS which are also well-discussed.
I personally am not a game developer and just a player who has enjoyed Fromsoftware games primarily Demon Souls, Dark Souls (DS) Trilogy, and Elden Ring. The podcast reminded me of the debated feelings of Invasions in souls-like to which I had experienced. I checked the forum and didnât see any recent topic specifically about the topic and wanted to create a topic to open discuss the idea. I am certain more experienced players, and game developers can articulate and argue the subject better than myself but still would like to add to the topic in what capacity I can provide.
I acknowledge such implementation of such mechanic if supported by players and developers would likely come in a post 1.0 expansion due to the complexity of multiplayer mechanics which is understandable. It would also be wise to gage player interest in such mechanic post 1.0 once the complete player base comes to terms with the gameâs mechanics and desire or opposition to such mechanic. The topic in support of potential implementation or opposition of such mechanics I respect in which I have found both sides valid.
My feelings/experience started in Demon Souls which I directly feared invasions. I interpreted invasions as a skilled, experienced player coming to kill an unskilled 1st playthrough player who will loss souls, max HP, and not something to look forward too. I will acknowledge that statistically the invasion has balance systems like soul levels and weapon level/damage balance to prevent âtwinkingâ (overpowered weapon from late game given to early level character), but raw skill of player isnât accounted for. Ergo, player with 10 play-throughs, can invade with a new character a 1st playthrough player. I would go out of my way to kill myself just to lose the capability of invasion and easily retrieve souls or even play in off-line mode to avoid it. I would join in assisting players beating bosses to learn boss move set but typically ensured my summon sign was at the fog for a boss to reduce PVP chances.
This perspective changed when I finally got multiple playthroughs in which Dark Souls 3 I engaged in Invasions through acting as a Blue Sentinels/Phantom summon. Blue summons acting as an âcounter invaderâ which you are summoned to a player who was invaded in which your goal was to specifically kill the invader in defense of the Host. I felt better about Souls-like PVP when teamed with another player which even if the invader is typically more skilled than me that at least would have other player(s) to support me. The concept of fairness in Invasion typically wasnât intended and even if 1 vs. 2-3 players seem unfair. Through trial and error/refinement by Fromsoftware and players learning and specializing builds; some invaders even preferring multiple players to fight. DS3 even had it set that invaders could only invade equal or higher-level hosts, somewhat helping less experienced players statically.
I did participate on release of Elden Ring PVP through yellow and blue summons, dabbled in direct red duel PVP on release. When the Coliseum was added I ended up enjoying the experience, even if it was chaos. Combat was fun and with multiplayer did extend my playtime, though as all the games from Fromsoftware combat could become gimmicky to a point. ARPGs being immensely complicated that builds offsetting others is only expected.
I did 2 separate runs as a CO-OP with 2 new players friends to Elden Ring and faced invaders throughout the playthroughs. The surprise challengers did make excitement during the runs to which as the experienced player I would make myself the priority. When Nexus Mods released âSeemless CO-OPâ I did a full run with those same players for main and DLC that was also great fun (Mod also mentioned in podcast).
The change of dislike to appreciation of Invasions for me was centered around experience in the game. Depending on the player they may not be opposed to idea as I was starting out but I feel that the first playthrough is the most sensitive time for Invasions which should be handled carefully. The modes for PVP area and duels create a good starting point for PVP which invasions could build off once new players develop the appetite for PVP. Obviously if you practiced/experienced in PVP and invasions then this is not a concern, Iâm primarily concerned for those who play the game and type of ARPG PVP for the first time to have a non-punishing first interaction.
The Invasion Mechanic in Fromsoftware changed with expanding and contracting through the course of the Dark Souls series. Major changes occurred during Dark Souls 1 - 3 and Elden Ring. Demon Souls and Dark souls trained players of the mechanic, even when off-line which key points NPC acted as âInvadersâ with the direct same function and goal of a player Invader. In playing the game the player would typically after beating a boss obtain the status of eligibility of âopen to invasionâ which the player could receive an invasion without even knowing that the invader was an actual player. The vagueness and information, discovery of mechanics, and story narrative in Fromsoftware games doesnât make this introduction to invasions abnormal but can result in potential negative introduction and view on invasions.
In Dark Souls inclusion of covenants directly centering on PVP and invasions added a new layer to the mechanic. Players typically phantoms (summoned players) had colors of white, yellow, blue and red for standard goals in relation to host (ex. support host goal, defend host, kill host). However, now players have covenant-based colors which include rivalries in such covenants. Example would be Rosariaâs Fingers Covenant that players who killed players of covenants of blue phantoms (Blue Sentinels or Blades of the Darkmoon) would yield additional rewards.
DS also had covenants for players to âdefendâ a zone/area from player(s) not aligned to their covenant, adding further variation in invasion narrative (though mostly just player color change). In DS2 had âRat Kingâ covenant with zones with traps to arm against intruders which âdefendingâ invaders could weaponize against host.
Unfortunately, covenants didnât continue in Elden Ring, though indicators of such covenants seemed experimented which âfingersâ acting as items initiating PVP invasions suggested covenant alignments that werenât mechanically pursued. Elden Ring even held invasions behind items that must be toggled to even see duels and allow eligibility of invasions. This seems as if in response to the negative feeling for new players but the drive to rise to the occasion of such mechanics not necessarily known for new players who would like to engage in such mechanics counters the change in invasions. The podcast called out that players who never played soul-likes typically didnât even know duels and invasions existed in their first play through. The mechanics hidden inadvertently blocked players from pursuing more community-based mechanics they werenât aware of.
Overall, Invasions as a mechanic best act as an addition to a gameâs PVP and not its overall foundation. Typically, players even treated invasion as âduelsâ by even having mannerism in engagement as bowing to the opposing player and in group of players even engaging the invader 1 vs. 1 until only the host and invader remained creating fairness in an intentionally unfair system. This created âfight clubsâ before area modes/PVP modes were added in games, showing the desire for such modes in the games.
In conclusion, I experienced both sides of feeling negative and positive of invasion mechanic and the before mentioned podcast re-igniting the concept of invasion in soul-likes with Moon Studios ambition to push the gaming genres and mechanics forward give me outlook that potentially this Invasion mechanic could have fresh ideas in NRFTW. NRFTW honestly doesnât need this mechanic, but many features in NRFTW such as player housing were pushed back during concepting and development whose addition was very positive on the game despite opposition. I am open to the idea that Moon studies who have pushed soul-like combat forward with ARPG mechanics could push the Invasion Mechanic forward where it hasnât gone before.
The following section includes ideas or concepts that in my opinion could utilize the Invasion Mechanic in NRFTW. These ideas are intended to spring the concept and not solidly define a method of Invasion. Ideas are not purely my own but inspired from other players and inspired by other games. In all implementations of Invasion, I would like to recommend that the player is required to âOpt-Inâ to the mechanic, even what types of âInvasionsâ so that player is mentally prepared and informed of the potential rewards and risks of invasion to their character. This would value player choice, though should be more forward in encouragement than Elden Ringâs almost background implementation. Traditional concept of Invader ignored by enemies NPC assumed but should be considered if worth of change in certain ideas.
(Invasions concepts)
- Basic Invasion: Invader vs. Host (Goal: Kill Host vs. Kill Invader)
o âVanillaâ invasion
§ Baseline Invasion: Player (1) uses item to queue for invasion.
§ Player (2) Hosts enter region outside Sacrament. Pushes 1/3 distance into Region/Zone and now eligible for invasion.
§ If matched, Host now locked by fog walls into region, canât travel fast out, as Invader is spawned into region. All Players receive messages stating that invasion has begone. All players locked in the region until invasion completed.
§ Invader get compass to guide to Host player and timer to hunt down and kill Host. Host gets compass to invader at last quarter of timer to push confrontation.
§ Host and Invader cross paths and fight to death. Winner is awarded. Hosts lose respawns at last whisper; invader is sent back to home realm in both win/losses.
§ End of Invasion Message present result of invasion (Invader Slain/Hunt Honored)
o Supplemented by CO-OP team vs. invader or group of invaders.
§ Group of CO-OP players are invaded, same conditions as Vanilla. Exceptions below:
§ CO-OP players can revive and respawn if slain by invader, except Host. Or could change this rule for invader goal is to kill whole party with no party respawns allowed (excepting revives).
§ Based on balancing methods whether 1 vs. 4 is achievable, ergo inflating invader heal pool (HP) to make capable of rising to occasion. Otherwise, in scenario that CO-OP party has 3-4 player party, then 2nd invader could join 1st invader with same goal and reward to achieve together. (Consider if team of invaders could revive each other?)
¡ If wanting numbers even 1:1 player matching invasion, but that sounds like Area PVP with more steps. (Ex. 4 player CO-OP team vs 4 player invasion team) Sounds not likely to work well with trickle effect of invaders during the invasion period. Could have group of invaders spawn as âkill squadâ but sounds better just for defined mode than as invasion mechanic.
§ CO-OP party with host on WIN would receive reward together or Invader Team would each individually receive reward if WIN achieved.
- NPC-Target Invasion {Assassination} (Discussed in Podcast):
o Target of invader(s) could be NPC; NPC could be stationary zone or traveling and timer forces invader(s) to make engagement or plan ambush.
o Potential for city guards in Sacrament to join in defense of NPC or attempt fending off invader(s) so Host to have chance of challenging Invader. NPC may have traveling guards.
o NPC could be City Official, Merchant, Guard Officer, farmer/miner. Would be non-named character that is spawned for Invasion and removed on completion even if survived.
§ The Podcast was centered on actual important character (ex. Filamore) which I think would be too far for the consequences for a named character. This would work for faction mission not involving PVP, which the player accepts the consequences of this (doing themselves). I can accept that idea as a player own controlled full event but not to length of an invasion robbing you of a character.
o NPC should have decent HP and capable of fighting back to not make a single hit the kill so Host/CO-OP party can defend and contest invader(s) in assassination attempt.
o This would create an invasion which Host/CO-OP party would mount a defense which map choke points and position significantly different to typical invasion priorities. Invaders on moving target could plan ambushes and NPC enemies to capitalize on attack.
o Consider Host/CO-OP parties could revive and respawn if slain.
§ Possibly consider if invaders could respawn if want an entire timer for event. Otherwise, a single attempt makes a strong challenge for invader(s).
- Faction Based Invasion:
o Faction based invasions which are related to faction rivalries and rewards.
o Players get rewards specifically for PVP related to invasion or defense of invasion or defending others (player or NPC).
§ Moon Studioâs CEO stated that âSevered Handsâ organization, therefore could give bonus awards for âassassinatingâ players
§ Faction that could act as âBounty Hunterâ, getting bonus rewards for killing âSevered Handsâ players.
§ Faction that could have players summoned to the defense of players of an invasion that donât have CO-OP party. Get awards for defeating invader with host surviving.
- Resource Invasion (Invasion Hoarder) {Discussed in Podcast}:
o Player (1) uses item to queue for invasion. Invader(s) get to pick a specific targeted resource. (Host doesnât known target Resource)
o Player (2) Hosts enter region outside Sacrament. Pushes 1/3 distance into Region/Zone and now eligible for invasion.
o If matched, Host now locked by fog walls into region, canât travel fast out, as Invader is spawned into region. All Players receive messages stating that invasion has begone.
o Invader goal is to harvest type of resource (ex. at least 50% of Ores of zone)
§ Invader may stay behind longer to get additional resources.
§ Upon achieving goal, must reach a designated whisper to extract.
o If invader successfully get bonus resources. Keeping all harvested resources.
o If host Kills Invader, gets all those stolen resources and bonus resources.
o Note: Consideration on extraction whether timer to extract to allow chance for host to challenger/contest invader at whisper, also if Host-Party are at whisper whether they prevent an extraction until pushed out or killed. This debatable to either challenge or reward slippery invader.
§ Note: Maybe have invader leave an âbread-crumb trailâ since this objective could be achieved with no player-to-player interaction. This would give the host and chance to pursue the invader. Concept gives an âCat-and-Mouseâ gameplay.
- Loot Invasion (Loot Goblin):
o Player (1) uses item to queue for invasion.
o Player (2) Hosts enter region outside Sacrament. Pushes Âź distance into Region/Zone and now eligible for invasion.
o If matched, Host now locked by fog walls into region, canât travel fast out, as Invader is spawned into region. All Players receive messages stating that invasion has begone.
o Invader goal is looting chests in zone (at least 50% chests in zone)
§ May stay behind longer to get additional resources.
§ Upon achieving goal, must reach a designated whisper to extract.
o If invader successfully get bonus resources. Keeping all âstolenâ loot and get bonus loot.
o If host Kills Invader, gets all those stolen loot and bonus loot.
o Note: Maybe have invader leave an âbread-crumb trailâ since this objective could be achieved with no player-to-player interaction. This would give the host and chance to pursue the invader. Concept gives an âCat-and-Mouseâ gameplay. This invasion would be very fast-paced sprint for invaders so trail would likely be good mechanic for this idea. Though need to have âhurdlesâ for invader to prevent speed run, maybe enemy NPC also target invader.
§ Possibly combine Resource and Loot Invasion(s) for Ultimate Loot Goblin/ Pillager Invasion which then less likely speed run invader instead for and more gluttony invader that Host can track/chase down.
- Bounty Thief Invasion:
o Player (1) uses item to queue for invasion.
o Player (2) Hosts enter region outside Sacrament. Pushes Âź distance into Region/Zone and now eligible for invasion.
o If matched, Host now locked by fog walls into region, canât travel fast out, as Invader is spawned into region. All Players receive messages stating that invasion has begone.
o Invader attempts to complete a bounty that the player has actively, once completed may extracted at designated whisper or stay to complete more bounties. If complete extraction gets bounty award from player 1 with bonus rewards. Player 1 loses bounty and rewards that could have been earned.
o If Host Kills Invader, Host completes bounty reward and obtains bonus rewards.
§ Note: This would also act almost as an PVP-PVE challenge in which bounty bosses are now goal for both host and invader allowing direct confrontation during the boss battle.
- High Risk Invasion (Personal Gear Loss) {Discussed in Podcast}:
o Vanilla Invasion Rules (except below):
o Invader and Host can lose gear on defeat; winner can loot gear of another player.
o This has the highest risk and consequence to players, not as likely to find mass desire except end game and high-risk players. Suggest only allow one item to be taken, this type of high-risk invasion/PVP requires heavy consideration if ever pursued.
- Sacrament Invasion (Raider/Robber)
o Invader queued for invasion.
o Host arrives and in Sacrament for short time, with multiple vendor refineries active and farms plots planted becoming eligible for invasion.
o Invader spawns just outside Sacrament in random region, all player get message of invasion commenced.
o Invaderâs goal is to steal resources from city projects like Danosâs Shop (partially funded projects), refineries at vendors, and player farming fields. (Steal at least 50% resources)
§ Upon achieving goal, must reach a designated whisper to extract.
¡ Debate on whether must escape Sacrament or reach Marketplace whisper and wait for timer to successfully extract. Whether want final fight vs. chase with potential final fight.
o If invader successfully get bonus resources. Keeping all âstolenâ loot and get bonus loot.
o Host attempts to kill invader denying raid/robbery. If denied, keep all stolen resources and bonus rewards.
§ Note: Consider whether Sacrament Guards assist in defense of vendors and/or blocking invader from exiting Sacrament.
o Note: Left player houses out of this because that seems a step too far. Maybe if high risk Invasion consideration, since Player Castle/Fort invasion sounds interesting on paper though I would argue player homes should be safe places for loot/resources.
- Crucible Run Invasion:
o Player (1) Qued for Invasion.
o Player (2) Host starts run of Crucible, at 2nd floor now eligible for Crucible for invasion.
- Upon player (2) migrating to halfway level, both players are spawned into level for PVP fight during crucible run.
o Invader acts as a mini boss at midpoint of Crucible Run. Challenges Host before they can access vendor in Crucible Run.
o Invader Winner gets rewards. Host losses run.
§ Host winner gets rewards and high echo rewards; invader returned to realm.
§ Invaders always return to home realm at conclusion of invasion.
- Invader Spreading Pestilence: (Pestilence System not final in Early Access, but thought of idea for invasion utilizing current System)
o Invaders take an item from Plague region with goal of reaching another non-plagued region to infect it. (Goal region known to both Host and Invader). Regions donât have to be adjacent.
- Consider whether invader can pass throw Sacrament or must travel around it.
o Hosts/Party must stop invader(s) or risk another region getting plagued.
o If invader wins, get rewards. Hosts now have two plagued regions, maybe even higher levels/more enemies short term for both regions.
o If Host stops invader, get rewards. Stops new plague region, maybe higher loot drops in originating region.
o Note: If invader reaches âplanting spotâ to spread plague, must defend area for short time so Host has opportunity to challenge event in final fight if in close pursuit.
o This concept encourages map exploration/navigation knowledge and âcat and mouseâ gameplay. Having invader leaving bread crumb trail would make sense given potential for sprinting/chase.
§ Note: with the whole âcat and Mouseâ and chase for all invasions may have to consider options or mechanics to slow invader since speed run tactics and ignoring combat shouldnât be meta tactic for invader. Some mechanics acting as âhurdlesâ to slow a âspeed demonâ invader.
- Manhunt Invasion (Flipped of vanilla invasion):
o Player 1, who is member of âsevered handsâ with high invasion kills, is in own realm and reaches furthest area of zone away from sacrament (3/4 distance into region). Now becomes eligible for Manhunt Invasion.
o Players 2-4 from âBounty Huntersâ faction are queued for Manhunt. All bounty hunters are spawn into player 1 realm at entrance to Sacrament in same region and all players get message for Man Hunt Commenced.
o Players 2-4 must track down and kill player 1 to win. Player 1 attempts to reach Sacrament and touch marketplace whisper to win. Consider if Hunter may respawn if killed, otherwise revive.
§ Bounty Hunter Win gets faction bonus for hunters. If fail get penalty from faction since this invasion is in their favor.
§ Player 1 win gets large faction bonus for own faction. This scenario is not in their favor.